Duflex Panels from ATL, Worth it???

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by tcpbob, Jan 25, 2008.

  1. tcpbob
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 29
    Likes: 5, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 42
    Location: australia

    tcpbob Junior Member

    As described in a previous thread I ordered a partial kit from ATL in Queensland Australia for a boat drawn for me by Bob Oram. The report I made with photo gallery of the first step in the process, gluing the panels together with the "Z" press shows many of the problems I encountered due to defects in manufacture.
    The report is here www.thecoastalpassage.com/bblog.html All up near half the panels were affected to the point of needing further work and some panels should have been rejected outright in my opinion.
    Michelle Crouch of ATL came to personally inspect the panels along with Bob Oram. Yesterday I got a letter from ATL offering some tape and epoxy to effect repairs and a credit of $584. Thats less than 2% of my cost which was $32,214 AUD. According to my estimations earlier in this project the boat could have been built for about 60% of the cost of duflex if I had used foam core from FGI instead but I wanted speed of build. I have attached the pdf of ATL's credit.

    So.. what do you guys think? Is ATL being fair??
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Alan M.
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 154
    Likes: 9, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 140
    Location: Queensland

    Alan M. Senior Member

    As you know Bob, I pressed together about 140 Duflex panels, with a total count of zero problems. However I did remove the peelply from next to the joins before joining them.

    I had one sheet of 25mm which had too much resin on a small area of it, but that was mostly confined to an offcut area anyway.

    Is Duflex worth it? Depends on how much value you put on your time. From seeing the progress of a friend building in foam/glass, I would have to say the Duflex kit is a bargain IMHO, but to someone else it might not be worth it at all. A Fusion kit can be launched much quicker, but it costs more again.
     
  3. tcpbob
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 29
    Likes: 5, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 42
    Location: australia

    tcpbob Junior Member

    Greetings Alan

    I think I wasn't precise enough in my inquiry. I'm speaking in my case.. is it worth it with the problems I've shown? With the quality that I got? On the peel ply thing, yes, removing first would have avoided a part of the problem but the method is one that is acceptable according to ATL, and if the panels are properly scarfed it does leave a clean line which I believe would have made the finish/fairing go easier. BUT as the scarf edges were not produced to standard this turned into another deficit.

    A path of reason I have is that for the difference in cost from other materials, I could have hired someone to help. Good experienced help can be found for $25 per hour so for the estimated difference (60/40) I could get help for about 20 weeks. (@40 hours per)

    The main question though is.. do you think ATL was fair in compensation? Did I get the quality I paid for or was the material second rate and if so what would the value be for seconds? As an experienced duflex builder I would value your opinion.

    Would you say that your 140 panels were of the same quality as the ones I received?
     
  4. Pericles
    Joined: Sep 2006
    Posts: 2,015
    Likes: 141, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1307
    Location: Heights of High Wycombe, not far from River Thames

    Pericles Senior Member

    Bob,

    Have you had any feedback from Bob Oram. You do sound like a disgruntled ATL customer and your designer will want you to be happy and satisfied with your build, otherwise it reflects on him.

    Best wishes,

    Pericles
     
  5. Alan M.
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 154
    Likes: 9, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 140
    Location: Queensland

    Alan M. Senior Member


    I'll have to come and have a look. I didn't see all of your panels. The 10 or so panels we pressed together when I was there were much the same as mine. Have any of those joins presented problems? When I get a chance I'll drop by and have a look.

    But even with a bit of rework to do, I'd still say you'll finish a heck of a lot sooner (I'm talking many months) than you would if you built in foam/glass, even taking into account the hired help you could have had. Plus there are some additional expenses which I don't know if you've counted, like having to buy a vacuum pump + associated gear, and the large amount of consumables asociated with vac bagging - the plastic, large quantities of peelply, double sided tape etc. (That reminds me, I was going to pass on a good source for cheap peelply)
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 2,440
    Likes: 179, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 871
    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    Bob, I havn't seen a "lot" of Duflex panels although I've seen some that looked a bit "dry" & in need of a resin screed after the peelys taken off, dunno how the build spec goes on these boats either in regards to just taping the chines or wether they get a full extra laminate over the lot. I cant knock the scheme though of the compu cut kits though- it gives a pretty good head start on a lot of the build but fairing(to whatever level) & painting will still take some time. As for the Z joins, I'm sure the testing of joints is backed up but its kind of "at odds" with my training in composites inthe 80's when choppy & a nice "juicy" layup where the spec but even back then continuity of fiber & approppriate resin ratios was "the goods" & still is(for my boat)although I'm kinda old fashioned in my approach. As for the cost benifit thing it depends on the tools & facilities available to you, as Alan has mentioned in regards to vac pumps/ laminating table & bagging consumable plus laminating labour & premises- with the off the shelf product that cost is included, if you got the gear or are prepared to invest is some extra investment to account for. Personally I've got those tools & premises & they cost some considerable bucks & am building a 12.4 meter cat in 'em plus repair work as it turns up to pay for it out of foam & resin materials I buy from FGI, if I was building in a tent in a paddock the panel products would probably win & I'd still end up with the same view on a great boat- just a different method of getting there. ATL has apparently come forward with some material & credit, thats pretty rare in my 28 year experience in the boat building & composites industry in regards to paint & resin companys so Bob you either got em by the short & curlys in regards to an admission of liability or they are a great company to deal with endeavouring to be fair especially in regards to all too slim margins who wanna be around to help you & others out next year & thereafter. If I was you in that position I'd be getting over it & on with it unless your looking for News. All the best from Jeff in your endeavours.
     
  7. tcpbob
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 29
    Likes: 5, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 42
    Location: australia

    tcpbob Junior Member

    Greetings all..

    OK, Pericles, I have sent Bob O a copy of the offer but it has been a holiday weekend here. Also, I will have to ask permission before commenting publicly on any feed back from him as his professional relationship with ATL is an important part of his business.

    Alan.. yes, the panels that you assisted me with were all good. The further down I got in the stack was where problems began. I would have had no concern or complaint at all if they had all been as good as the first 20 or so. BTW.. got a call from VP, my shelter is ready to pick up. For others reading.. I'm reffering to a temporary structure that Alan turned me on to. Looks very good and a fraction of the price of any other supplier. $4000 for 8X14metre. Maybe worth another thread.

    Waikikin.. Yes.. I know of the dry skin thing but that doesn't worry me. A quick trowel and it's over. The good thing is it is evidence of light weight, that is, not over saturated. One of the advantages of their press method. (when it works) As it happens I do have two powerful vacuum pumps but wouldn't think it was a requirement, and premises. Had them anyway. I base my comparison to foam on the method described to me by Bob Burgess (lotta bloody Bob's in this business!) who most describe as one of the best fibre glass hands in the business. He tried to talk me out of duflex. He said to use the flat panel method but loft up whole panel sections of foam on a flat surface and then resin the lot with two people, one mixing/wetting and the other rolling on glass. Trim edges while still green etc... Of course there was more detail in the method but I'm trying to be brief. What spooked me a little was that the timing is so critical. No room for error so I felt as an amateur... I would save the stress. Also a disadvantage to working foam and vinylester is the fumes... (do you agree?) Even though I'm on a relatively large property now (wasn't when first considering the project) I felt the neighbor issue could be a problem. We talked numbers also and the figures I've used are based on his info and pricing from FGI at the time. I've seen his last two boats at/near launch and they are fantastic. Hard to believe they didn't pop out of a mould. Have you seen his boats? Ama Two or B 52 or Adios?

    All in all, I value the input. It's hard to navigate in unfamiliar waters so I appreciate some local knowledge. And NO!! deffinately NOT looking for a story. Last thing I need. I want to get this boat in the water but after 30 years in retail and manufacturing business, I never let product go out that was so far off first rate and would have done more to rectify if I had.. but it wasn't boat business. Expectations may vary but for the rest of the boat... foam is looking better.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 2,440
    Likes: 179, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 871
    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    Bob, I'll agree on the fume thing, neighbours can be a problem at the best of times but if they get styrenated & if you dust their washing with glass dust they aint gunna like it! On timing with layup of panels the stress can be on, once the resins mixed you gotta get it down against the clock- preparation ,enough hands & practice on smaller panels helps a lot. I dont mind the styrene smell(homely & comfortingly familiar) but mask up for it as much as possible, if I go home with it on my breath some one lets me know! it cant be good for you & likewise for polyU paint, epoxy , glass fiber particulates etc etc- gotta try to keep them off & out of the humans. Bob Burgess's methods sound similar to my build process & good practice, I'm not familiar with the boats you've listed but I might have seen a pod cat & a tri based on a crowther 10 as main hull that where reputed to be his builds, dunno kinda 4th hand info. My build is in vinylester- iso polyester & contact molded with gelcoat finish, I've got some pretty sweet tooling for the hulls & the decks but the underwing/cabin & bulkheads all mold off melamine sheet tool surfaces & go to the trouble of molding in door jambs & reveals, recessed panels etc as many incorperate some uni glass surrounds & should save some effort at fitout time. If I was doing a flat panel hull for me I'd mold them myself at full length & put a tabbing/taping rebate at their external perimeter to minimise fairing areas. In my experience FGI is great to deal with on timely delivery & quality materials & is usually my choice of suppliers & ok on price. How much of the boat did you get in the kit if your thinking of swapping to foam? Regards from Jeff:)
     
  9. Richard Atkin
    Joined: Jul 2007
    Posts: 579
    Likes: 18, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 219
    Location: Wellington, New Zealand

    Richard Atkin atn_atkin@hotmail.com

    Bob, I know nothing about ATL and nothing about Duflex, so I wouldn't dare make a judgement on ATL. But I know what it feels like to be 'compensated' in a very minimal way, by a business that has supplied me with inadequate goods. It has happened to me over and over again by P.A. suppliers giving me the wrong goods just before we played live, in my band.

    I believe if you claim to sell a certain product or service, then you should do exactly that....because otherwise the consumer will experience all sorts of stress and hidden costs which go far beyond the 'compensation'.

    I have decided not to build my own boat because of all the inevitable stress. I am whimping out!! I hope things go better for you from now on. (I'm sure they won't :D). But I am sure the build will still be very satisfying in the end.

    just a bit of 'I know how you feel' drivel from Richard
     
  10. tcpbob
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 29
    Likes: 5, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 42
    Location: australia

    tcpbob Junior Member

    Hey Jeff
    On the fumes.. yeah. When was first considering this we were on a 850m2 block with big shed by the beach. All the neigbours except one were absolute ********* in a town that had very high standards (or low depending) for *********! The boat would have had to be withdrawn from the property via the one good neigbour. I fixed up the back yard, did earthwork to level and install gravel surface and just as I finished the one good neigbour died! coulda killed him! Anyway, that was the final reason for the duflex was the odor thing and knowing the remaining neighbours would use any excuse and that would have been a legit one. Stuff it, we moved. Now on 1/14 acre with good neighbours to boot. But went ahead with duflex for the other reasons..stress etc.

    Would really like to see your action. Sounds like I could benefit from observing.
    I think you have Burgess boats worked out. The poddy was 60' "AMA Two" and the crowther main hull tri was Adios. still around the gold coast I think when not in the Whits. AMA two went to neumea.

    The kit includes hull and most bulkheads and bridge deck floor. Also scraps for part deck 19mm left from floor. Need chainplate and main bulkhead, remainder decks and bridgdeck top and such. boards are timber.

    Subject to change at any time.. I'm considering nidaplast for bridgedeck top and foam for decks and various bits.. maybe ply for remaining bulkheads. Everything up in the air now as was planning to use duflex all up. The concept of duflex is good. expensive but my time to build is stressed and it's supposed to be time effecient but... I've lost trust. I'm not in a rush to decide replacement materials as it will take some time till I get to that stage. My life is in 2 months cycles due to the paper and working on new one now. I will be soliciting advice from those more knowledgable.... ahemm

    "just a bit of 'I know how you feel' drivel from Richard" Thanks for the thoughts Richard.. yeah I know.. I was surprised. In my business days a $30,000 to $52,000 account would have had goods of top quality, personally inspected by whoever was going to cop it if it went pear shape... ME.. and any legitimate fault would have been addressed to customers satisfaction full stop, no ifs, ands or bull. Just hate to start on back foot fixing stuff that shouldn't need it.
     
  11. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 2,440
    Likes: 179, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 871
    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    Bob, the pod cat I was thinking of may have been "pronto", about 9-10 meters I think the tri sounds like a definite match- cant be too many of them around, I dont know Bob B but I heard good stuff about him, both the boats I'm thinking of where in the Gwawly Bay, Sydney area at some time near where my Dad keeps his boat. I would recommend transition to foam at the deck, that is how my boat is designed at my request with balsa in the hulls(as yet unmolded through space constraints) of 25mmm & 30mm for the front third & goes to foam in the deck at the sheerline & also at the tunnel-bridgedeck intersection. The reasoning behind this is that balsa does a fantastic job as a core with all the right "numbers" in regards to stiffness, impact damage tolerance, weight of skins, cost & is easy to "close out" the very few penetrations of thru hulls, shafts whatever in the hulls, but due to the miriad of deck fittings & potential for fastening leaks I reckon foam is the go for decks, I know as most builders do balsa & foam need a "Close out" or "Annulus" of high density core or putty for preferably every fastening, the facts are particlarily on retro fit of stuff like dodger tracks & stayputs installed by trimmers, unforseen deck gear etc & stuff fitted up in a hurry for a "special" race or event, shortcuts get taken & later on problems can "arise" & foam will be much more forgiving in this respect although balsa is fine so long as done right. I'd be happy for you to "check out my action" although I'm on a pretty slow earn as I go program after some pretty substantial investment in tooling & shed/yard & am molding up all the flat panel stuff first as it takes less space, even though my sheds well over twice as long as the boat & tooling the shuffleing of jobs & trailers & lam tables & parts is kinda amazing but luckily I got some monorail - uni beam rails & cross rails with carraiges & chain blocks to ease this. I havn't seen much plastic honey comb except in some powerboat decks & bulkheads for some boats I do some warranty work on- the issue with it on fitout work is that without good preplanning of joinery & panel intersections is fastening holding- you need something worthy of a screw at these points & I've added a lot of alu angle to these onto sika with plenty of short pan head screws to "backscrew" stuff together- of coarse its a building issue & a lack of Knowledge/foresight & method that is at issue rather than a material problem- if used well in the right spots its got great potential but the builders of these boats are talking going back to ply for fitout. I quite enjoy your online Mag but wish I didn't look at the shark thing! All the best from Jeff.
     
  12. tcpbob
    Joined: Dec 2007
    Posts: 29
    Likes: 5, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 42
    Location: australia

    tcpbob Junior Member

    Ah right.... YES Pronto... forgot about little pronto. have some pics somewhere...

    25-30mm balsa forward? thats pretty thick isn't it or do I misunderstand. But yes, foam from the sheer up is being considered with nidaplast from deck up.... like I say, everything subject to change along the way. If nothing else it will make a great running article to incorporate just about every bloody material there is into the project, that way I am forced to learn (usually by error and trial) and relate more info... what not to do most likely. I am publishing this coming issue, a story about a guy that bought a pod cat and has installed a full bridgedeck in nidaplast, thats where the idea came from and also a source of info for me. He is the one who lost his boat "Triad" to "Larry" and has since replaced her.

    I covered Bob B's new boat "B 52" just prior to launch in TCP # 20. It has since been rotated out of the web site but if you are interested here is a direct link www.thecoastalpassage.com/papers/tcp20.pdf that might work... BTW, that edition has one of my all time favourite stories... guns and bandits..

    but you were warned about "the shark thing" weren't cha!

    What did you think about the big Tri getting driven in?

    Gotta run, putting pages together fast as I can.. next issue out soon.

    Also.. you can get paper copies if you prefer, the distribution list is in the advetising section somewhere..

    Cheers
     
  13. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 2,440
    Likes: 179, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 871
    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    Bob , correction on the thickness- good spot, its 19 & 25 fwd, maybe I should spend more time on it!. But still on the thick side cos she's drawn to meet survey requirements. & yeah I was warned, maybe I just aint as tough as I thought. Regards from Jeff.
     
  14. Freenacin
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 48
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 44
    Location: Earth

    Freenacin Junior Member

    Hmmm... Here's what I see ..... you take a gumby sketch to bob Oram, he designs a boat for you which looks a hell of a lot better than it, but you take the credit for it anyway, and then publish on the internet what a crap product and rip off Duflex is, when most of the problems were caused by you not making sure there was no peelply in the joins, and you know Bob Orams core business is designing Duflex kits.

    Can you complete this phrase? "With friend like that, who needs ........"

    Am I being too harsh?
     

  15. eastcape
    Joined: Jul 2003
    Posts: 50
    Likes: 5, Points: 8, Legacy Rep: 62
    Location: NZ

    eastcape Senior Member


    Well said.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.