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  #31  
Old 02-02-2008, 03:00 AM
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Pericles Pericles is offline
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Freenacin,

You still here? As usual, you can't start a post to me without spelling my nom de plume wrong. It's Pericles, not Periclese.

As for embarrassment, that's more the pot calling the pan black.

Pericles
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  #32  
Old 02-02-2008, 05:19 AM
Richard Atkin Richard Atkin is offline
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Actually Pericles, you're wrong. It's Periclese
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  #33  
Old 02-02-2008, 08:57 PM
Bad Lattitude Bad Lattitude is offline
 
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Hello to the forum. I'm happy to have found this forum. I have been looking at the different ways to build a catamaran, and am very interested in the DuFlex kits. I actually this forum by googling "DuFlex kits"

Mostly what I have found so far has been very positive about them, this is the first really negative information I have found.

TCPBOB, after this experience, would you advise me to avoid DuFlex? The other building systems look like much more work to me, but if this product is dodgy, then is it worth the money?
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  #34  
Old 02-04-2008, 12:15 PM
Freenacin Freenacin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
Freenacin,

You still here? As usual, you can't start a post to me without spelling my nom de plume wrong. It's Pericles, not Periclese.

As for embarrassment, that's more the pot calling the pan black.

Pericles
Yes, still here. Having actual experience with Duflex, I think I have something to contribute. Have you ever used Duflex? Or even seen the stuff?

Bad Lattitude, it takes time and money to build a boat. To generalize, more money = less time, and vice versa.

If you have the time you can build with strip cedar or Kiri for quite a bit less money than Duflex. You could build with foam/glass for less cost than Duflex, more than cedar or kiri. But with those materials the build would also take much longer.

A female moulded, gel coated kit such as a Fusion 40 will take less time to build than a similar boat in Duflex, but will cost considerably more. There are also mixed flat panel/moulded kits like the Spirited 380, priced in between.

In my experience duflex will save a great deal of time spent fairing, compared to strip cedar, kiri or foam, and I have used all of these. I would certainly charge more than the $25 per hour TCPBob mentioned for my time, especially time spent fairing, so to me, Duflex is worth the money.

I know of around 20 Duflex kits that have been built, by myself and others, and to my knowledge none of these kits suffered the quality issues the OP found. Which is not to say it couldn't possibly happen, because in this case it apparently has.

My advice to you would be that you could reasonably safely expect a kit with none of these quality issues. But if you did recieve any second rate material I would strongly advise you to stop building and contact ATL BEFORE joining those sheets together. I have no doubt the ATL would replace any defective material, as long as it hasn't been used.
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  #35  
Old 02-04-2008, 02:48 PM
Richard Atkin Richard Atkin is offline
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I have no doubt that ATL will pay more attention to final quality inspection....to make a good product even better.
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  #36  
Old 02-05-2008, 03:51 AM
tcpbob tcpbob is offline
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Greetings Bad Latitude

Good question.. As I said previously, I chose them after careful consideration. I was willing to pay the extra money in exchange for the speed of build and stiffness. Balsa core in general has a good reputation except some who bad mouth it for saturating with water over a large area if the fibreglass is punctured. Foam is supposed to be less prone to that. But I have seen too many good boats made of the duflex so I considered that and still chose the duflex. Every material must have some downside probably. The question posed is whether they are worth it if the panels are poorly made. At what point do they lose their advantage due to the need to fix errors. It seems to be hit and miss lately. A batch that was delivered just prior to mine was perfect. I saw them being worked, flawless. I do sympathize with ATL to a point. The labor market in Queensland right now is difficult. But why didn't someone inspect my panels or if they did, why did they allow them to ship? Since posting I have received several emails from people that have also had quality issues and one that claimed to have had a less expensive product shipped instead of the "superlite" panels ordered. He said it was quite a fight to get ATL to replace the panels. I think the photos on my web site speak for themselves. I also believe Richard Atkin was correct, "I have no doubt that ATL will pay more attention to final quality inspection....to make a good product even better." But it wouldn't be that way if I hadn't spoken out so your chances of good product are better as a result.

My advise? Look at the pics, www.thecoastalpassage.com/bblog.html and consider that the worst possible and I think unlikely to be repeated.
Also, I have no vested interest in exposing the faults I found. Quite the opposite. Be careful of a few ravers on this forum who apparently do.
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  #37  
Old 02-05-2008, 09:05 AM
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Spiv Spiv is offline
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Freenacin,

I have read all your posts on this and other forum threads and could not find a posting worth reading, no real contribution to the discussions.
Why don't you find something better to do with your time?
As far as me I will save my time by jumping right over your posts.
Spiv
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  #38  
Old 02-05-2008, 08:34 PM
Bad Lattitude Bad Lattitude is offline
 
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Freenacin's last post was very helpful to me. Not yours.

Thanks to both TCPBob, and Freenacin, and others who have real life experience with duflex kits for their views.

I think for me, I will need to do more "research" before comitting. (Browsing the internet, looking at multihull sites)

TCPBob, your bad experience has really opened my eyes, I had the impression duflex was a very good product of very high quality, and I could buy a plan for a kit with confidence. Now I'm not so sure.

I'll spend more time checking out the alternatives.
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  #39  
Old 02-06-2008, 08:17 PM
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Spiv Spiv is offline
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Duflex

I also built a 12.5m cat using materials from ATL.
Duflex, Durakore and paper honeycomb panels.
I did not post a comment before as I was short of time and 7 years passed since I dealt with ATL, so my comment has to be taken as a 'snapshot in time'.

We found all ATL products to be of good structural quality, what I mean is that the skins were attached to the cores OK (if your skin delaminates easily, you could have a catastrophic failure).

The skin quality was poor, pin holes on every surface forced us to skim coat every surface we wanted to paint.
The sanding and fairing was the most expensive (labour wise) item in the whole boat.

ATL had a 7 week wait, pay half up front, half before shipping, take or leave it attitude. The resin came without TDS (technical Data Sheet) or MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). We (professional boatbuilder included) laminated the first hull mixing the epoxy 4:1 (like the glueing epoxy) instead of 5:1 (laminating epoxy).
We had to remove all cloth, wash the hull with acetone and do the job again the day after. Wasted a lot of cloth, epoxy, time, hence a lot of money.
When I rung ATL they said that we should have known and if we did not know, we should have called them for instructions.

Like I said that was 7y ago, I am sure things have improved.

I have just sold my boat and am designing my new one; I will use PVC foam and Vinyl ester resin. There are many reasons for that and you will find a lot of different opinions on that in other forums.
Do your research and make up your mind without listening to any one person in particular, there is a lot of subjectiveness in the topic of what is the best core material.
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  #40  
Old 02-06-2008, 09:03 PM
Alan M. Alan M. is offline
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What you say about the surface of the Duflex is true, but that's because they have used the minimum resin required to wet out the glass, and little or no more. As TCPBob said, this is a positive - it means the panels are about as light as they could be. Downside is, you do have to screed or squeegee on a thin "runny" bog mix to fill the weave.

I didn't get any MSDS or TDS with my resin either, but every container of hardener had the mixing ratio printed on the labels. (I've found that to be the case with every type of epoxy I've used.)

Waiting times for Duflex are even longer than they were before - around 12 weeks I think.
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  #41  
Old 10-18-2011, 12:04 PM
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brian eiland brian eiland is offline
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I was searching some boat forums for info on these Durakore, Duflex products, and missed this discussion originally (probably as I expected it might be under 'materials').

I wrote to a surveyor friend recently:
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian
Have you had any dealings with boats constructed from these materials?
http://www.atlcomposites.com.au/file...e_brochure.pdf

http://www.atlcomposites.com.au/atl_...anels/durakore

It appears to be as though they (ATL) supply you with balsa cored sheets (panels) that you then join together, and then rip (saw) into strips to be laid over the frames, and rejoined together at their edges prior to glassing the outer, then inner skins onto these 'durakores'. ...Am I reading that correctly?

Granted they are using epoxy resins, but it is still a balsa cored vessel...with lots of edges glued together
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian
I had (have) some reservations about 'balsa cored' products, and the thought of ripping up panels of balsa sheets into strips and then laying the strips up next to one another to be glassed over just bothered me to some degree.

There have been so many new proprietary names attached to some of these basically same construction methods that it has become increasing difficult to ascertain exactly which one is being described. This client I am in discussions with sent me a reference to this rather interesting site last night:
http://smalltridesign.com/Trimaran-A...ods-INDEX.html...wondered if you had seen it?

I have yet to read all way through it myself. But I did find this reference to the use of Durakore on a Dick Newick vessel,
"In the early days, Dick Newick tells me that the manufacturer actually bonded on TWO skins on each side for extra security and that's how his racer 'Ocean Surfer' was constructed in '86/87—the first boat to use DuraKore in North America. But coupled with a substantial fibreglass skin, this boat was heavier than Dick would have liked, though certainly built more resistant to water penetration than 'the average' balsa core boat."
http://smalltridesign.com/Trimaran-A...-Building.html

If this Durakore product is so great, and use of it in the USA began back in 86-87, why haven't we seen its expansion into the USA market to a much greater extent.
Let me clarify I'm not totally against this product, as I have yet to find many (any) real negative stories about it.
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  #42  
Old 10-20-2011, 06:24 PM
Alan.M Alan.M is offline
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Durakore is a different product from Duflex. Durakore is a balsa core with thin timber laminates on either side. Duflex is balsa or foam core with fibreglass laminates.

I built my boat from Duflex, and have been completely happy with it. It's an excellent product to work with.

I don't think I would have used Durakore. IMO if I had to glass over the all the external surfaces myself, the cost wouldn't have been worth it.
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  #43  
Old 12-13-2011, 11:16 AM
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brian eiland brian eiland is offline
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Polycore, Polyproplyene Honeycomb Product

I've been doing a bit of looking around for alternative cores to balsa as found in these Duflex, Duracore products, and I'm liking this Polycore product more and more.

It poly-honeycomb (Polycore) appears to be a product manufactured by Polycore Products....and one of their primary 'panel maker' utilizing this product appears to be Australian Composite Panels.....Have I got that correct?

I'm finding that 12M (40' Kit Boat) of theirs very interesting as well.

Does anyone have first hand experience with this core/core-panel products??
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