comparison of old trimarans?

[Blacky]

hello,

I am looking for an article / resources about:
comparison with adv./disadv. of different trimaran type from 60s/70s like
Searunner, Seaclipper, Arthur Pivers, Buccaneur, Telstar, Livly 28, etc.

Which one is said to be very fast?
Which one has the biggest room / most comfortable?
Which one is said to be especially seaworthy?
Which one is said to be easiest to build?
...

thx!
blacky

[Doug Lord]

PM Gary Baigent-he is a member here and quite knowledgeable about older tri's and cats....

[Gary Baigent]

Blacky, I don't know much about a few of the deigns you've listed ... the fastest of that period would be the spartan Lock Crowther Kraken 33 and 40 with then his Buccaneer 33/40 close behind, the latter have larger accommodation and a reputation of being very good seaboats. The Buccaneer 24 is an outstanding little flyer, hence all that interest on boatdesign.net. Also an easy boat to build.
The Piver Nugget 24 is another great little boat but they need to be kept light and definitely need a decent daggerboard in the main hull (or two in the floats - can be asymmetric for even better windward performance). Also easy to build - but you can make improvements, might as well.
Jim Brown Searunners have a huge following, huge reputation as comfortable, fast, cruising boats. We used to race against a Searunner 25 in Auckland, the owners loved the boat but a B24 would beat it.
Don't know anything about Telstar - our thoughts over here were that the English designs (like the MacAlpine Downie Iroquois cats) were not as fast nor as good as the Antipodean designs. Of course all this stuff here is subjective. Cheers.

[cavalier mk2]

From a State side cruising perspective the Searunner, Cross and Horstman designs are all good and would probably finish a race in that order unless the cross racing designs were allowed. As far as room goes reverse the order which makes sense. All these boats are far more roomy than the current boats. Pivers can have a lot of room and can perform well if kept light. The boats that are still sailing have stood the test of time and are good designs. Marples' CC designs are well regarded and the Seaclippers seem sensible. My Nicol Vagabond MK2 has caught all these designs when the wind has been in the range of our old sail locker. The newer Wharram boats usually sail better than the older designs,the exception being the thin hull boats like Ariki and Raka. These are cruising observations, if race prepped results would vary significantly with the money spent. A good survey is essential but any one of these boats could give you a lot of boat for the dollar. It is fun to pass a new cruising cat in your old barnstormer! There aren't many Crowther tris in the NW but I would expect their thinner hulls to sail faster though carrying less load.

[cavalier mk2]

Check out some of Chuck Kanter's books such as "Cruising On More Than One Hull"' for detailed reviews of many of these vessels.

[pogo]

Originally Posted by Blacky

hello,

I am looking for an article / resources about:
comparison with adv./disadv. of different trimaran type from 60s/70s like
Searunner, Seaclipper, Arthur Pivers, Buccaneur, Telstar, Livly 28, etc.



thx!
blacky

Perhaps u should think about a comparison of tris that are available in Europe.

There are only few Searunner, Pivers , far less Buccaneers , nearly no Kraken and Seaclipper, no Lively.

In Europe u gonna find some Pintas, more Tridents, and Telstars. Perhaps a design from Andrew Simpson (Simpson Wild) or Andre Allegre.
Some info :
What boat?

pogo

[cavalier mk2]

I should add a performance disclaimer about Nicols. The Cruising designs such as Wanderer, and Islander are slower. New tris such as Farriers, Dragonflies will pass the older designs but without having the room or capacity. Leaner cat designs can be quicker as well if they leave the bridgedeck condo home. Some of the old boats have been turned into real dogs by owners who have added onto the cabins or filled the available space up with things. I would think the British cats are all over Europe, Prouts, Macalpine-Downies etc....
What size range are you looking at? If you are looking at larger boats to sail home it opens up more options. Smaller boats to be shipped are another idea and of course Wharrams are everywhere and can get you anywhere. I mentioned a few cats for comparison though they aren't the bargain Trimarans are.

[kim s]

Originally Posted by pogo

Perhaps u should think about a comparison of tris that are available in Europe.

There are only few Searunner, Pivers , far less Buccaneers , nearly no Kraken and Seaclipper, no Lively.

Some info :
What boat?

pogo

Oh yes there is --------mine.
Could not tell you how it sails as still rebuilding. hopefully will be able to report back inapril/may next year.

Kim

[Blacky]

thank you very much for the informations!

I am very fascionated by Jim Brown and his Searunner designs. Seems to be the best compromise between speed, room and easibilty to build. I watched the vidz on outrig.org - fantastic how much experience and commonsense Jim put in the searunner. Unfortunately the Searunners bigger than the 25 can't be folded or demonted afaik, which is a crucial point for us. And the 25 is too small to have a dining room / double berth in the aft cabin. But I love the concept of mid cockpit and aft cabin.

I cant understand why many tris - even small tris - have an aft cockpit. Doesnt make sense to me with a long narrow vaka. Center of weight should be somewhere between the beams in the midth of the boat I think - except its a skiff like tri.

I am skeptical about the solid wing decks of some oldstyle tris. I think it makes the boat much more sensitive of waves from the sides than wide-meshed nets/tramps. Right?

[cavalier mk2]

Hi Blacky, The Searunner 31 A-frame version is demountable and has the features you want. I've been impressed by how well they sail cruising and parted one out for a rebuild. The underwing pounding varies from design to design and is one part of the Searunners I don't agree with on the wing deck versions. The underside of the wing angles up toward the ama on them for clearance but as you heel it presents a flat surface to the waves. Most of the Cross, Nicol, and Horstman designs are straight across the underwing bottom so when you heel the surface is angled to the waves for a much softer impact. Our Nicol just takes a occasional soft slap even when loaded for cruising and at speed. Norman Cross said after polling his customers that the wing deck was preferred for normal use because of the ease of on deck work and dryer ride. When sailing you don't have to worry about the fire hose effect going up the legs of your foulies...We have taken a lot of first time people sailing and for all around use other than racing a wingdeck is great. ( I also think it gives a softer ride because of the air cushion.) I agree that the cockpit shouldn't be all the way aft but having it too far forward takes a lot of spray at speed and when going fast you move weight aft. All the happy searunner owners have a windshield or get soaked going through waves. Jim Brown's own Searunner 31 A-Frame has a neat folding top for the cockpit that gives the best compromise for those designs. The A-frame version also doesn't pound like the others. We haven't had any problem with waves from the side and stay a lot more dry than the open wing crowd. Those waves usually hit the ama and on a open wing boat the spray goes all over you. In winter conditions a flatter upper deck is less slippery. My Nicol has about the maximum camber I want if it ices up. I love Newick's wing akas but in winter climates those decks are like sled runs so use ropes to traverse the slopes and use non skid, I keep a bucket of sand on deck.

[Blacky]

Originally Posted by cavalier mk2

The Searunner 31 A-frame version...

sorry, what does "a-frame" version mean?

[cavalier mk2]

The aframe means removable aluminum frames or trusses at the 2 main strength locations, in place of the for and aft beams. The rest except for a bow and stern timber at the perimeters of what would have been the wing deck is open. The cabin comes out to the side the same amount so no space is lost.

[cavalier mk2]

I should add that the main hull is 8 feet wide for legal road transport.

[jamez]

Jim Brown's own SR31 is an A-frame boat IIRC. Being able to demount a boat for easy transport to a backyard is very convenient.

[bregalad]

Many of the Piver designs weren't particularly fast. His dart series of which few were built sailed quite well at the expense of accommodations. Amistad was a 25' dart that Bernie Rodriguez sailed in the '68 OSTAR. Piver himself had a 33' dart that also sailed well.
All the Searunners are fine boats. The Crowther boats would probably be the best performers.