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  #106  
Old 10-26-2016, 05:29 AM
redreuben redreuben is offline
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Originally Posted by jorgepease View Post
There might be one drawback - The idea of keeping the prop up above bottom of boat is so I can motor in the shallows. In these cases, the rudder would be up.
If your rudders are daggers in cases you can lift them to suit depth.
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  #107  
Old 10-26-2016, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by redreuben View Post
If your rudders are daggers in cases you can lift them to suit depth.
...... & if those dagger rudders actually had a T foil and propulsion incorporated you would have a Rudder Incorporated Propulsive Lifting Enabled T Foil...
...otherwise known as Redreuben's R.I.P.E.L.T.Foil & so includes Rip for fast & Ripe for just waiting to take world by storm and Pelt for pelting along like fast and foil for cool...
You would be a world leading pioneer of combining concepts already in use but be able to advise all that may have a vague interest in the coolness of it.
Well Done.
From Jeff
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  #108  
Old 10-26-2016, 05:55 AM
redreuben redreuben is offline
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Then I could post on forums in red text and make claims like "never before done in the history of humanity"

I like it.
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  #109  
Old 10-26-2016, 02:47 PM
jorgepease jorgepease is offline
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All is possible, I think the side pods would be a simpler and hardier solution plus keeps weight in the middle. A 50' cat will need larger than 4kw motors. When I anchor up for days or weeks, I will just slip a plastic bag over the pod to thwart fouling.
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  #110  
Old 10-31-2016, 09:23 AM
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I am just now reading thru this subject thread, and I am only on page one, so please excuse me if this is mentioned in later pages.

Have you looked at the Derek Kelsall methods of flat panel, on a table infusion methods?
http://www.kelsall.com/TechnicalArti...OfArticles.htm

Derek has been a very long proponent of foam cores, but many foams don't hold up in deck structures exposed to big sunlight heat, and there are some mild problems with skin adhesion in some cases of brittle foams, etc.

I've come back to looking more closely at the old Nidacore ideas. This is after studying a number of successful projects utilizing these PP type cores, and some of Nigel Iren's observations about the need for more 'ductility' in the sandwich core constructions.

Here is one 'polycore' construction I found quite interesting (attached PDF as their website has been removed)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Solitary Island Catamaran.pdf (690.7 KB, 55 views)
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  #111  
Old 10-31-2016, 09:32 AM
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Picnic/Weekender Cat

Weekender/Picnic PowerCat

Weekender/Picnic PowerCat
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian eiland View Post
What would you think of building such a picnic/weekender cat out of the polycore material? ....(a polypropylene honeycomb/epoxy) as utilized on this 12M Solitary Island catamaran.

http://www.australiancompositepanels.com.au/index.htm

... In fact we might be able to turn one of these sailing designs into a power cat design something like the picnic cat I posted. I'm already talking with these fellows about a 'aftmast version' of one of their cats for an American client.
BTW, there were 2 of these built in Thailand for the day charter business, wood construction.
I have in mine a slightly smaller version built in 'polycore panels',...as an alternative shallow water fishing/diving/exploring vessel for Jimmy Buffett (as opposed to that deep draft mono he is having built).
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  #112  
Old 10-31-2016, 09:53 AM
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KSS building system,...no expesive molds

KSS stands for Kelsall Swiftsure Sandwich.

Quote:
KSS is to forget all we know about traditional boat building. This is the hard part. The blinkers of what we know are very powerful. KSS takes the requirements of the final craft, the properties of the materials involved, the structure and what is efficient in the boat shop, and combines them into a common sense handling process.
Quote:

A full size, flat mould table, usually of melamine covered chipboard, is the basis of the technique. Butt strap joins underneath, join the table surface sheets and trestles to support the table top. The first table was make in 1973. All structural parts start on the table, which allows ease of laminating and provides a smooth finish for one side. Vacuum Resin infusion has been adopted and refined to suit the table, as the standard laminating technique.

The Materials – PVC Foam, polyester or vinylester E-glass skins for the whole structure.
The basis – starting by making flat panels on a full size, simple, flat table.

The major time savings come from
* Working on a table, with a relatively small portion of the done on the boat.
* Picking up the finish from the table, for one side of all parts, plus edge treatment at the same time.
*Resin infusion which produces the full panel in one shot.

KSS has been applied to every size from 8ft to 100ft.

Resin infusion became a KSS standard 8 years ago. It is the “magic” which changes the nature of the whole process of boat building. The boat shop can be clean and smell free for most of the time.

For more than twenty years, we used vacuum bagging techniques, to make foam sandwich panels on the KSS table. The only incentive to change was the improvements resin infusion offered. A high quality panel in the least time, made neatly and cleanly, and with reliability. A panel, of any size, can be made by one person. This is not sales talk. We do it at every workshop. The last workshop group made three 32ft. panels, in four days of hands on instruction to people who had not done it before, with the first day spent in other preparation work.

While working with liquid resins, does it make more sense to work on boat shapes or to do 95% of the work on a flat table, from which a smooth finish to one side is free, letting vacuum pressure do the hard work, to achieve the best standards? Everything in KSS follows from there.
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s...&postcount=109

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian eiland View Post
If you look thru some of that KSS information and links I just posted, it's hard not to see that this is the ideal manner in which to build the relatively big flat panels of our decks, our cabin sides, and our cabin roof for the new Pilgrim design.

And these 'pieces' can all be built on a big flat horizontal table that produces parts with a 'finished side' to them, and the glass lay-up can be varied from part to part (main deck different than cabin side, different from cabin roof).

Set up properly this would all go much faster than traditional hand lay-up, with fewer people, be a much cleaner operation, and produce a superior resin injected piece.

Derek has worked with PVC foams like this for years, and much prefers them for this process. That said, there are no set rules that the Pilgrim redesign could not utilize the same foam-cored panels for its superstructure. BUT, I also think that the newer resin-injected-ready polypropylene cores could also be utilized in place of his beloved foam.
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  #113  
Old 10-31-2016, 09:58 AM
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...more from the construction of a 'Great Gatsby' trawler canal boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian eiland View Post
This is the plastic honeycomb material I want to utilize to build the superstructure(s), ie ….cabin sides and roofs
Attachment 22925

Attachment 22926

Plascore PDF
www.plascore.com/pdf/PP_Honeycomb.pdf

I'd like to use a relatively thick section of PP honeycomb (1 to 2 inches) to get a relatively stiff panel, with a minimum of layup of fiberglass skins on both inner and outer surfaces. The skins of this sandwich structure can be varied in their layup depending upon the required strengths needed for roof panels, cabin-side panels, etc. I don't foresee a need for big shear resistance in these panels that will be basically glued together to form the big 'box' structure of the main cabin and pilot station. Here are two illustration of that basic 'box' structure with bold lines to emphasis the structure.
Attachment 22928
Attachment 22929

Note also there is additional support for this 'big box cabin' via the vertical support tubes / columns that are anchored in the steel gunnels / bulwarks and then reach up to support the outer edges of the cabin roof. With these columns and the stiff panel walls there should be no other requirements for any internal framing inside the cabin box. Possibly there will be some additional corner braces added to the inside and outside of the 'cabin box', and these may appear as finishing-trim pieces.


This entire cabin box structure can be quickly assembled from pre-cut honeycomb sandwich panels off over in a corner of the shop, right on the shop floor, then lifted onto the deck of the vessel and glued or mechanically attached down. Built of primarily hollow honeycomb panels, this superstructure should be pretty light-weight.


There is no electrical wiring nor plumbing contained in the walls of this cabin-box. These services are all provided for by way of the floor of the cabin,....underside of the deck.


And speaking of the deck, I would wish to construct the main deck of this same Plascore honeycomb sandwich material. It would have a slight crown shape across the vessel, and will have sufficient glass layup on either skin to support big loads. It would also be molded by resin-injection to insure an excellent resin glass ratio, and a very thorough bonding between the skins and the core, thus preventing any water migration along the bondline.




For reference:.... previous postings on KSS construction of panels
post #109
post #110



Next,...finishing off these superstructure panels...
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  #114  
Old 10-31-2016, 10:07 AM
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http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=180121&postcount=137

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian eiland
Yes I've thought about this, but at present I'm still leery of what the numbers could be, so I'm trying to avoid as much 'tooling investment' as possible to begin with.

And the carpentry portion of the job might be farmed out to another 'home building supply group' that needs a little side work to fill out their schedule. I've done a little looking at operations in Thailand, and I know of some in Vietnam that could supply all the interior wood as a 'kit' to be installed. For that matter a USA company might just as well supply the CNC cut wood kit for not that much greater price,...and we'd be employing US workers. I even know personally of some home remodeling friends with a wood shop that could knock this wood kit out rather easily once all the dimensions and shapes were documented.
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  #115  
Old 10-31-2016, 10:12 AM
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...from that trawler build discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian eiland View Post
Please be aware, I agree with you, "don't engr the quality out of it". I would rather not proceed with the project than build a significantly substandard replica. I would not want a vessel that is any less 'comfortable feeling' than the std Pilgrim. The Herreshoff style wood trim on the interior really needs to be retained for its feeling of warmth and class.

But I want to investigate more thoroughly the possible use of those fabulous 'composite woods' they are using in many home floor applications now. There must be at least 5 different types I've seen with just a short visit to the big hardware chains. I'm sure there are many more varieties. I've seen some wall paneling in hotels, offices, and restaurants in Thailand that I would have sworn were wood, ...but turned out to be composites or veneers. I'm sure these could be formed up in a CNC kit to be applied to the interior. And with the cost of quality real wood these days, and the carpentry skills to cut and install them on each individual vessel, there has to be some savings realized. These products were not widely available for boatbuilders until only the last 7 years.




At the moment I have in mind a maximum of 3 primary vendors:
1) Steel Hull builder
2) Wood Interior kit fabricator
3) Deck and Cabin builder & final assembly (our own shop)

I would refer you back to this early posting concerning the steel hull fabrication and woodworking:
Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

....and this posting #137


One of the great labor saving technics that can be employed in boatbuilding is to try and limit the 'ladder time' that consumes so much time in many operations. It literally can double or triple the time required to complete a task. You don't want the guy to have to be climbing on and off the boat to complete a task.

Leaving the hull of the vessel 'deckless' and sitting low down near the shop floor until the last stages can greatly facilitate engine, generator, tanks, plumbing and electrical wiring installations.

Likewise being able to work on the box cabin attached to the main deck and sitting at shop floor level can make this work go much faster, particularly as you add that wood trimming.

In general labor hours for vessel construction can easily reach half or more of the vessel's building cost. I would seek to cut a fair amount of man-hrs to build these vessels by cutting out lots of 'ladder-time', and subcontracting the hull and wood-kits out to two other contractors.
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  #116  
Old 10-31-2016, 10:22 AM
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KSS building process.....a first hand account
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian eiland
If you look thru some of that KSS information and links I just posted, it's hard not to see that this is the ideal manner in which to build the relatively big flat panels of our decks, our cabin sides, and our cabin roof for the new Pilgrim design.

And these 'pieces' can all be built on a big flat horizontal table that produces parts with a 'finished side' to them, and the glass lay-up can be varied from part to part (main deck different than cabin side, different from cabin roof).

Set up properly this would all go much faster than traditional hand lay-up, with fewer people, be a much cleaner operation, and produce a superior resin injected piece.

Derek has worked with PVC foams like this for years, and much prefers them for this process. That said, there are no set rules that the Pilgrim redesign could not utilize the same foam-cored panels for its superstructure. BUT, I also think that the newer resin-injected-ready polypropylene cores could also be utilized in place of his beloved foam.
If you combine this quote of mine, along with my previous posting #109....

"KSS is to forget all we know about traditional boat building. This is the hard part. The blinkers of what we know are very powerful. KSS takes the requirements of the final craft, the properties of the materials involved, the structure and what is efficient in the boat shop, and combines them into a common sense handling process."
Take into consideration these two postings, and then read a first hand account of a fellow (JAM) who just recently attended one of Kelsall's workshops

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
I spent 4 days in Lenoir Tennessee at Derek Kellsall’s KSS workshop. We built the hull of a 42 ft catamaran. Two friends are building two 42 foot cats at the same location there. When finished one guy will take his to Florida and the other will sail on TVA waters. One will have a normal bridge deck with accommodations and one will be more of a open/day charter cat.

I would be lying if I said I wasn’t amazed at how pitifully easy and fast it was to construct a hull. Half of the hull ( one flat panel) had already been infused and formed so all we had to was build was another half, form it and then bond the two halves together. I would estimate that two hard working people could easily build both halves and bond them together in about 10 days while still keeping it fun. Boat building fun? Sheer heresy you say? Read on.

Prior to the workshop I had only seen two boat builds. A Bruce Roberts 53 in steel and an F-31 in foam epoxy. I have repaired my boats dozens of times with foam, glass, polyester and epoxy resin, but never built a boat from the ground up. This was a real eye opening experience. I went from being terrified that I would never have the time ( or stamina) to fair the hull surfaces, if I ever took on such a project, to realizing that on the infusion table flat beautiful fair panels could be produced at a rapid clip. Hulls with gel coat or ready for paint. Derek has so damn much horse sense and has just found the simplest way to do things. Another quality I find appealing in anyone is being willing to be wrong and learn from other people no matter what their background. Well during each of the workshops new techniques are discovered and Derek incorporates these techniques into the knowledge he brings to the next workshop. I boarded my plane back to Minnesota with “I want to do this!” echoing in my head. Of course it would be easier to buy a used boat, but I found the KSS process to be surprisingly enjoyable and satisfying. Parts are created so quickly on the table there is a level of excitement that has to be experienced to be believed. Fiberglass and resins for me has been nothing but sticky, picky, itchy, stinky drudgery for me in the past. Now I have a whole new way to look at the process and confidence that I could do it and not want to give up from the sheer drudgery of sanding years of my life away with the wind blowing outside.

I came into work this morning and my YouTube subscriptions sent me this video. I watched it and wanted to cry. Cry at how much work these very talented guys were doing that they didn’t have to. I cringed when I watched the video, like watching someone paint a house with a half inch wide brush or cut a lawn with a fingernail clippers. I guess us humans revel in doing things the hard way out of sheer momentum or stubbornness. Every culture has their idioms, but in this case I have to stick with, “You can lead horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.”

jam
PS:.... from a multihull forum
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  #117  
Old 10-31-2016, 10:24 AM
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Sorry for the overload of info, I just got back to looking thru that lengthy subject thread I did on the Pilgrim trawler redesign effort.
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  #118  
Old 10-31-2016, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Woods View Post
I would estimate 7-10,000 hours to get a fully finished 50ft cruising boat. So if you do get more customers to use your moulds they will have a long wait before they can build, especially if they will also be in your shop as it seems you can only build one boat at a time there

Remember when you have done 90% of the build you only have 90% left!

Did you ever see the "Cruising Stuff I'm Into" Sully" build at Green Cove Springs. He didn't get far in 3? years.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs
Do you have another reference to that Green Cove Springs build? I live very nearby that place now, ....and entertained the idea of building over there on that big industrial piece of property
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  #119  
Old 10-31-2016, 10:43 AM
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Hey Brian,

I really like corecell and Gurit epoxy, it's proving itself on my flats boat to which I show little mercy. I used, I think, the 5lb density everywhere, hull and decks and so far no issues with pounding seas or heat and mine sits in the sun all day long.

I'm curious to see what the price is for corecell in Thailand. I don't know what polycore is, I'm open to all local materials but the designer will ultimately have to approve. Also I've done so much testing with corecell that the comfort I have working with it is worth a few extra bucks.

I looked at the KSS system, It's def a smarter, quality way to build for many people. The bulkheads and other components of my build would def be infused on a table, as a stack, with caul plate, as Groper mentioned. Other components would be infused into smaller molds, top of hulls, bimini etc...

However I am def stuck on infusing both hulls and bridgedeck in one shot because I think most people lose sight of how much time is wasted setting up and breaking down infusions, moving materials and infused components around and just switching gears in repetitive work.

Then again, most home builders can't take advantage of a production style work flow for many reasons - $money, space, equipment (hoists) etc... I am fortunate to have the budget up front.

Looking forward to this! Hopefully building over there will make sense!!
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  #120  
Old 10-31-2016, 11:43 AM
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Picnic/Weekender Cat saloon

Air con via ventilation openings in deckhouse sides like Gunboat 55 and that picnic cat from Thailand that I posted.


http://www.yachtforums.com/threads/weekender-picnic-powercat.13966/#post-173671


http://www.yachtforums.com/threads/w...t.13966/page-2
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