Canting Keel Monos vs Multihulls

[rayaldridge]

It's my opinion that everyone who races would like to win, and would like to be the fastest sailor in whatever class he or she competes in. According to you, I'm wrong. I'm sure you know a great deal more about racing than I do, so maybe I am.

However...

The examples you give of people who are competing in classes in which they have little realistic chance of winning are probably doing something other than simply getting out on the water and enjoying the sailing. They could do that without competing, with less trouble and expense. I would guess that they are enjoying learning a new discipline and that during each outing they try to improve their standing in the fleet. It still seems to me pointlessly argumentative to assert that going faster than the competition is not the core objective of racing. Having mixed fleets does not preclude competition. The slow boats compete with the slow boats, the less-experienced sailors with other less-experienced sailors. A well-known international multihull racer keeps a Farrier tri in the canal across from my house. On Wednesday nights he sometimes races a dozen or so yachts from a nearby club, and he is always home well before even the other two Farrier tris that often participate. The rest of the boats are monohulls of varying speediness. Are you really asserting that the other sailors don't care about doing as well as they can, even if they have almost no chance of ever being first home?

You continue to muddy your argument with references to class racing. Truly, that's not what I'm talking about. In the Hobart race, many different kinds of monohulls are permitted to race. What is the purpose of excluding multihulls, other than to protect the fantasies of monohull racers that they are sailing fast boats? The NASCAR analogy does not really apply. There are many reasons related to safety that preclude gocarts from racing in the same races as Indy cars. The same does not apply to ocean racing.

The Everglades Challenge, in my opinion, is an example of a race that sets a realistic set of parameters for participation. It's a shallow water race over much of the course, so it makes sense to limit the size of the boats, and there are also some socio-political factors, in that (I think) the originator of the race wanted to protect the ability of the non-rich to compete. Other than that, the race is open to just about anything that can be dragged off the beach. Somehow it does a very good job of allowing competition within the classes it divides entries into. Why couldn't the Hobart race do the same? The big monohulls will finish long before the smaller boats; why are they so afraid of allowing multihulls a class of their own?

To repeat myself: there's nothing "wrong" with prohibiting multihulls from participating in an ocean race. But such races would be more interesting if a wider variety of ocean racers were allowed to compete. In fact, those races that do not arbitrarily prohibit entries based on the number of hulls are in my opinion the best races of their kind.

At least to me.

Sorry if you found my remarks insulting. That wasn't my intent.

Originally Posted by CT 249

Racing is about enjoyment on the water. It's a way to have fun, get challenged, exhausted, and learn.

It's not about winning, if it was about winning almost no one would race because the vast majority know they have no chance of winning. As Stuart Walker puts it so well - "winning is the object of the game - but it is not the reason for PLAYING the game."

Surely if you say it's "silly and spiteful" to limit races to classes or types, you are in fact saying it is wrong?

A guy in one of my fleets moved from 2nd in the world in the fastest of all dinghies, to the back of the fleet in a Laser-speed bit of kit. If it was all about speed and winning, why would he do that? A two-time world Moth champ (fastest of all singhelanded monos) has moved to a class that's too costly for him to win in, but he's having fun. If it was all about winning, he'd be in a class where he could afford to play to win. A one-time and three-time champ in the fastest small singlehander enjoy Lasers although they get beaten in Lasers....if it was all about speed and winning they wouldn't do that.

Tell me, are these guys - probably much younger than you - all "opinionated old windbags"? I've known a shedload of racers, and almost none of them do it for the winning.

The "spiteful protectionist crap" keeping multis from mono racing is the same sort of thing that stops Indy Cars and F1 from racing in the NASCAR that you held up as an example of a good racing format. They don't let recumbents in the Tour de France, they don't let surfskis in paddleboard races, they don't let cats in windsurfer races, they race like against like.

Even the Watertribe events you hold up are only "for small boats. Therefore, there are filters and rules designed to naturally limit the size of the boats".

If you can say "this is a small boat event" and only one or two crew are allowed and that's fine, why can't you say "this is a mono event"??????

The Watertribe says that those who are considering entering a "doubtful" or "experimental" boat may submit it "for review prior to signing up by supply the following: a picture in jpg format, manufacturer or designer, model, length, beam, depth, displacement, rigging description, propulsion methods."

So why is a race where they can review your application to enter based on displacement or designer something to hold up as an example, whereas a race that says "monos only" is spiteful? It's okay for the Watertribe to say "we won't let a boat of XXkg or by designer "X" to race", but it's not okay for the Hobart to say "no cats"????? I have a canoe that belongs to the oldest class of canoe to ever race, yet it's not allowed in the canoe or kayak class....so much for no rules.

Monos are just like another type...a rather more open type than some. They should be allowed to have their own races, just as Hobies can have a Hobie event without Tornadoes, and windsurfers can have a race open to all types of windsurfer, but not let skiffs and cats in.

The Everglades race looks interesting. Races that allow different sorts of boats in are interesting. But just as some of us enjoy that sort of race and should be allowed to do so, others should be allowed to sail to a race format THEY like without being insulted.

[CT 249]

Yep, people would like to win, and to go faster than the competition - but that's not what the racing is "about".

Maybe the core objective of "the race" is to go faster, but that's not the core reason TO race. Maybe it's like indoor rock climbing - the core objective of "the climb" is to get to the top, but you don't do the activity to get to the ceiling of some dusty, hot converted factory. You do it because you enjoy the process.

If you play charades or golf with friends, you may keep score but it's not "about" winning.....well, not the way the people I know play.

I don't think it's muddying the waters to talk of class racing. There is a broad spectrum of ways of working out who can enter a competition and who can't. The Hobart is open to many different types of monos, but NOT all sorts. It never has been. There's no shorthanders, and there's restrictions on things like LPS, LOA. The main prize goes to fairly conventional boats; for 40+ years, only RORC, then IOR, then IMS boats were allowed and almost all were fairly conventional. Historically, it has NOT been an "all comers" race even for monos.

I believe that there is a very strong unofficial "class" made up of "mainstream" fully-crewed monohull yachts from 9m to 30m, and that the Hobart has as much right to be a race just for this "class" as the Hobie Association has to say "you can race a Hobie Wave, 16, 17,21, 18,18M,Tiger, etc, but not a Nacra F18" or the Laser class has to say "this is a race for Laser Radials", or the Sportsboat guys say "this is a Sportsboat race".

"What is the purpose of excluding multihulls, other than to protect the fantasies of monohull racers that they are sailing fast boats?"

To keep the fleet together, and keep the fleet sailing in something like the same weather so that the racing is meaningful. As I mentioned, the supermaxis have caused a problem in this respect already, and many people are strongly opposed to them on this ground.

One of the features of the Hobart (when it was strong and growing) was that all the boats were quite similar in general performance, for their length. That meant that the racing was actually damn good because the conditions didn't affect performance as much as they do today. Increasing the difference between boats would affect this. I actually find the race LESS interesting these days, because so much is down to the luck of the weather.

The feeling at the finish has changed dramatically over the years. When I was a kid, when the little boats finished it was normally about 30 hours after the first boat. The parties were still going, the big-boat crews were there, everyone got to meet plenty of people.

Nowadays, the slower boats are finishing about 60 hours after the first boat. The presentation has actually been held by the time the little boats get there! The big boats are making their way home (from memory). The media, which is obsessed with the big boats, has often switched off by the time the overall winner of the whole race is declared. The whole effect is to make the little boats and the 40 footers, the backbone of the clubs and the fleet, feel like afterthoughts. And the more diverse the boats become, the less of a fellowship feeling there is in a fleet.

Even if there are safety reasons keeping smaller vehicles out of NASCAR, the fact remains that the popularity worldwide of NASCAR and other saloon cars is a demonstration of the fact that pure speed is far from the most important factor in competitions.

IF mixed multi/mono races are so great, why do so many events open to both - like the singlehanded Transpac - do so poorly? The numbers of that event have been about 1/20th of what they used to be. Same with the (now dead, I think) Round Britian; the Three Peaks Races here and in the UK. No one likes to finish a race having sailed their smaller boat well, and to find that "most" of the race has been over for a week or so.

Everglades challenge looks good, but it still bans some craft. Open-entry races are great but so are limited entry events.

[frosh]

Hey Matt, in my part of the world we have a little get away island called Rottnest, just west of Perth. It is a bastardization of the word Rat Nest. The rats are actually funny little marsupials that are like obese rats.
The West Aussies have a very high proportion of boaties and very wealthy in relation to a small population.
Sometimes we do see hot girls on the bow of 60-70ft. Hollywood express cruisers. Nice thing about them is that they are often naked.
---------------------------------------------------
Am I off the topic yet?

[rayaldridge]

Okay, you've beaten me into submission. I will, however, point out a large inconsistency in your argument.

When I asked:

"What is the purpose of excluding multihulls, other than to protect the fantasies of monohull racers that they are sailing fast boats?"

You answered thusly:

Originally Posted by CT 249

To keep the fleet together, and keep the fleet sailing in something like the same weather so that the racing is meaningful. As I mentioned, the supermaxis have caused a problem in this respect already, and many people are strongly opposed to them on this ground.

You then go on to complain bitterly and in great detail that the event has changed drastically for the worst, with the big fast boats finishing so far ahead of the smaller boats that the latter can feel irrelevant to the race.

So evidently the damage is already done. But at least the race organizers are protecting the tender feeling of the supermaxi owners, right? After all, why let boats in that might make those poor suffering wealthy souls feel as bad as the rest of the common herd?

I think that many of the problems you cite with mixed racing are real, but that many could be overcome with proper organization. For example, some races allow the slower boats to start before the faster boats. This does have the disadvantage that the late fleet will be sailing in somewhat different conditions than the early fleet, but ocean racing is an uncertain sport in so many ways that this seems a small price to pay for more interesting finishes.

Anyway, I think the Hobart race should either throw out the supermaxis or else they should allow multihulls in. Would you agree?

[CT 249]

Yep! For all the reasons mentioned above. I am certainly not alone in this. I think much of the decline of the race has been the pandering to the big boats.

As I mentioned a while back, I'd love to see the multis (and Mari Cha IV) in for one race in a special class with the supermaxis, to give them a reality check. I've never gotten around to taking up the offers of a ride on Raw Nerve, if it came to taking on the supermaxis I'd love to hop aboard.

There's a difference in what's "interesting" depending on whether you're watching or racing, I think. As a competitor I preferred it when the differences were smaller.
For more interesting finishes, the LOA rule could go as well (for my 2 cents worth) because all we get now is 30m supermaxi canter v 30m supermaxi canter. Going back a few years when the top limit was a rating, you'd get a fascinating race between different concepts; 84 foot IOR ketch v 75' IMS sloop v Modified Open 60 v IOR inshore maxi v maxi sled, or R/P racing 90 v RP cruiser/racer 98. Obviously, there's a lot of personal taste in how big you want differences to be.

Starting small boats ahead in the Hobart would be a major change. The Boxing Day start for the whole fleet is a major institution in this city; something like 200,000 live spectators jamming every part of the harbour, live TV telecast. It's something never to be missed and could not be replicated if the fleet started in two halves.

[marshmat]

I concur, too.
Yes, the 30m canting supermaxis are impressive boats, and yes, they're fun to watch. But when the rules encourage a single style of boat like this, then not only does the cost of racing quickly outpace the cost of launching spacecraft, but it becomes a lot less interesting to watch- there's no diversity.
I would love to see the S-H and other big races opened up to a broader field. Get some multis, some smaller mono canters, etc. in there. Make the competition that much more dynamic to watch. Race boats by their rating, not by their MSRP.

[rayaldridge]

I'd like to see an ocean race, or even a coastal race in which the cost of the boats is the filter. For example, if entries were limited to spending $50,000 dollars in actual materials and labor, I would guess we'd see some spectacular ingenuity that would trickle down to the rest of the sailing world a lot better than the innovation attached to goldplated yachts currently does. Of course, then someone would organize a race limited to $20,000... and I'd find that even more interesting.

Are there currently any races based on some sort of spending cap? It sems to have worked pretty well in the NFL to keep the richest owners from always winning the SuperBowl.


Ray

[SailDesign]

I'd like to see a SuperBowl where the earnings were limited to $50,000

[jehardiman]

If you really want to kill a spendy class you only have to enact one simple rule........Owner has to Skipper!

[Chris Ostlind]

You are kidding, of course.

This selection process has been tried many times and it is easily gotten around by the simple measure of hiring a rockstar tactician who calls tiller and trim adjustments on the fly.

For every rule, there's a rule "adjuster". When that dude wins, all the others "adjust" in the same fashion. There's no limit to the adjusting process when you have sufficient funds to support the desire to beat your buddies. This runs true from the Wall Street ticker numbers to the selection of parking spaces at the yacht club.

If you want to get all proletariat on the whole thing, you may have an answer in the beginning, but then even that process will begin to show favoritism and rule bending to reflect the influence of certain "comrades".

There's no magic bullet when testosterone (or the wistful dreams of same) is involved.

[rayaldridge]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

If you want to get all proletariat on the whole thing, you may have an answer in the beginning, but then even that process will begin to show favoritism and rule bending to reflect the influence of certain "comrades".

Could you give us an example of how that works in the Everglades Challenge?

[Chris Ostlind]

The EC is not a race. Even then, there's nothing keeping you from having a pro sailor crew your boat for you while you sit around as the defacto skipper.

I've considered building one of my designs and having it sailed by a hotshot beach cat crew while I drive the course as the radio connected chase crew.

[yokebutt]

Well, the A-cup has a spending cap of sorts, two boats max.

Yoke.

[rayaldridge]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

The EC is not a race. Even then, there's nothing keeping you from having a pro sailor crew your boat for you while you sit around as the defacto skipper.

I've considered building one of my designs and having it sailed by a hotshot beach cat crew while I drive the course as the radio connected chase crew.

Not a race? Why do they record the finishing times of each entry, then?

I thought you'd already built a design for the EC, a very nice-looking tri. Did you ever compete? I'd think you'd do well.

I have a theory that the reason the beach cats haven't won yet, even though they must be faster around the buoys than most other entries, is that it's really hard to squat on a trampoline for three days straight.

[Chris Ostlind]

Nope, I wouldn't call it a race when more than half the participants do not engage in pushing the limits. If anything, they approach the EC as a confined cruising event in which they feel enormously satisfied for even completing the route.

To address your point, there are, perhaps, 10% of the entrants who are really racing. Everyone else is doing what they can, but they are certainly not pushing it as a racer would.

I have completed a nice 18' tri that would probably do really well in that event. Thee time/distance to travel from Utah to Florida, along with the time to prepare the boat, do the event, do the take-out, detune, and then drive all the way home involves more time from my boat design, prototype building and my photography career, than I care to spend for that enterprise at this time.

That may change in the future, but right now the EC is geographically undesirable. Myself and few other guys have been kicking around an idea to produce a Raid style of small, coastal adventure boating event in and around the San Francisco Bay area. The event we have in mind has river work, extreme tidal issues, very strong wind and current conditions and open ocean travel.

The boaters would sail/paddle/row each day to a pre-determined end point where they would all spend the night at the same facility such as a B&B along the route. There would be a running, accumulated elapsed time recorded for each boat, but the purpose of the event is not to bust-out with a fast sailing time to make the point. The purpose is more about being involved with an organized camraderie in small boats, in a wide array of conditions, in some of the most beautiful sailing/boating waters in the world.

Sailors would spend each night at a communal meal and celebration of each other with stories from the previous day, jokes to be told, prizes to be awarded for unique reasons... that kind of stuff.

I'm not out to discover how much of a stud I am anymore. I've done lots of expeditions on the water and in the mountains, as well as served in the military during the Vietnam thing. I've experienced all of the "balls to the wall" style of personal testing that one person could need in a lifetime.

The event that is being planned is about discovering the joy of coastal sailing and route finding without experiencing sleep deprivation or crappy dried meals.

There will be tough conditions to deal with along the way, but they will be taken in doses that will be manageable and everyone will get to have a night of sleep and have dinner with a group of future friends that will be memorable.

All the boats will be of a like type in very general, broad classes with no haggling about the rules of, "is it a canoe or kayak, is it a race boat or not? The reason this will work is because nobody will really care, because they aren't really there to burn a fast lap. Oh, sure, a few of the entrants will feel like they have to get it on, I suppose, but they will only be doing it for themselves and they can keep their complaining to themselves as well.

So, we'll see if we can pull it all together and hold the event.

As for the beachcats in the EC...? Yeah, the sitting on a wet tramp non-stop is certainly part of the reason. There are lots of young dudes, however, who are multihull hotshoes who'd do it in a second and not blink about it. They just haven't found it to their liking, is a more likely answer.

There is a winning entry as a catamaran I would think. It is a crewed entry of about 20 feet LOA with hull interiors wide enough to sleep in while sailing. A place where you can get warm, fed, dry and catch some Z's. Some years back a guy named Vlad tried to use an inflatable cat with oars. Nice idea but not for a solo operator if you want to go fast. As a cruiser, it works OK, though I think there are some better boats out there for that than a heavy inflatable cat. Unfortunately, he bounced the boat off a few too many oyster beds and holed it. Wrong boat for the conditions, it turns out.

In last year's wind conditions, the crewed, hull cabined cat could have been totally supreme with two, well-conditioned, experienced multihull sailors and a screacher. Horizon job. Though, apparently, a beach cat did come close.