Can foiling do something positively for the future and our environment ?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Skip JayR, Oct 5, 2015.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ---------------------------------
    The good news is that the Revolution is spawning new one designs whose foils are more or less locked in. In development classes, they'll always be new stuff. In the AC, the foils remain one of the only parts of the boats that are NOT one design-so lots and lots of development.
     
  2. Skip JayR
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    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    Maybe I should precise my question and give an example, just hypotetically what I meant with "life time cycle".

    E.g. if I'd had to calculate the equippment of a boat with foils, I would count:

    (1) Prize of foil kit, plus
    (2) the reconfiguration of the boat, e.g.
    (a) excavation (sinking a shaft) of the amas must be adapted to the size,
    (b) redesign of the mast
    (c) adapted sails to the new mast (e.g. bigger mainsail).

    So lets say, as an example... with a foil kit, I'd get a bigger uplift of plus 30% of the ama, instead of 180% boyancy I get 234%.

    In consequences I can upgrade the mast from 18th to 21 meter length, with a new main sail, e.g. a traditionally head sail to a high performant square head... a plus of 15% bigger mainsail area

    In total with this "pimping" I get a higher speed in rough waters of 3 knots. Just an assumption, not based on real datas.

    After configuration of such a boat as a sportive sailor/boat owner (just hypotetically spoken) I'd keep an eye on the foiling scene to see what is coming up next, from season to season, from regatta to regatta.

    Lets say, after 3 years I notice, that other boats with newer foils increase their speed so no chance anymore on the regatta course to win.

    In consequences I'd need to adapt the "old foils" and exchange them with a new kit of foils with higher performance, which bring an uplift of 45% and again the "old game" begins from new: (a) adapt the amas with... (b) redesign of the mast etc. etc. etc. ...

    So in this example the "life time cyclus" of the foils would be counted at maximum three years. Probably less, as the development of the newer foils has started before and the peak of maturity is reached earlier. (Source of graph: http://productlifecyclestages.com/ )
    [​IMG]

    I think you are since longer in the branch of foiling, Doug L. You explained before what happened all over last 15 years. I suppose there is a cyclus one can observe, isnt ?
     
  3. John Perry
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    John Perry Senior Member

    I don't want to make too big an issue of this Doug, but I did design, build and sail a hydrofoil sailing dinghy with just two foils one ahead of the other some years before people in the Moth class adopted that idea. I only ever took my boat out for a few test sails but was able to make a run accross most of the width of Grafam water with the hull fully clear of the water, this was a distance of several hundred yards and was limited by the size of the lake. There could have been other people also doing this before the Moth, although I am not aware of any. The advantage of heeling to windward quickly became clear from these early experiments. I counted the experiment as a sucess and then moved back to my original interest in sailing which was cruising in small open boats of fairly conventional design.
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    That sounds great, John. Bet it was a lot of fun!
    PS-what did you use to control altitude on your boat? As far as I know John Ilett was the first to use wand altitude control on a Moth which he adapted from Bradfields system. And again, as far as I know that was the first instance of wand altitude control on a bi-foil monofoiler?
     
  5. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    are you kidding? sailing is either sport or recreation, there is nothing "eco" about it. you use less resources staying home and watching cable TV. Affluent countries consume large amount of resources on sport, entertainment and recreation, you can not justify any of it on an "eco" basis. It is just folly. The more affluent the individual and the country, the more it spends resources on non-essential luxuries.

    Like all other forms of sailing, foiling is just another fun aspect to the sport. If it actually faster, less costly and consumes less resources to get to your destination by commercial air travel than by sailing. It is such a silly stretch to even get caught up in such vacant minded debates and thoughts.

    Like a lot of sports that uses obsolete means, materials and science has made it more competitive and faster. Archery, crew team, bicycle racing, are just sport with very little practical application. In fact the technology was almost always developed for some other industrial or military application first, and than applied to sports.
     
  6. Skip JayR
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    Skip JayR Tri Enthusiast

    Making oneself blind on two eyes...

    Pedro, you talk like one of these local politicians on a voting campaign representing a "liberal democratic party". In the sense of: Let do people what they want do.

    Not the way I like we communicate here in my thread the thematic. Putting the fingers on people and saying: Guys, you are mad thinking, its in the box of "senseless and worthless philosophy". It sounds like a silly way which kills every kind of discussion. - So pls stop it (at least in my thread) !

    You cannot argument: It is as it had been since long and so it is ! Thats a very unintellligent way of argumentation where you same kill any learning proces from the past.

    Instead you keep yourself in this "narrow minded box", you'd better come out of and start to think newly or at least, listen to some people who have a fresh mind, ask critically questions, not because its fun for itself to speculate around, more its urgent to find answers for relevant solutions (e.g. the problem of wasting energy) we need on this planet more than urgently.

    My intentions behind this thread have a concrete motive... its very simple.

    Buying an "old boat", e.g. a 20-30 year old Trimaran which I actually look for.... and then thinking about if I can "modernize this boat" with foils to make it more seaworthy and optimize the performance.

    I'd call this a "good way", that "old boats" are not thrown away... rottening in the backyards... and wasting lots of money and energy buying a new boat. But I like to proof my idea (self) critically. I dont waste my time to hang around in a forum just for lots of bla, bla, bla talking.

    Be in a way "constructive" within your argumentations, but not a kind of "fatalistic thinker" who gave up any self motivation to think the things newly. At least I cannot follow your way of thinking.

    This planet is collapsing, climate change is just one signal which shows it. So we all have the duty to change our doing, acting, attitude and overtaking responsability. This relates to all "life segments".

    What you do here in a very negative way is to legitimate "bad acting" of sailors. At least its good that you dont pretend to be "eco friendly". But there is nothing to be proud of the "bad acting" as you describe it.

    Your conclusions sound for me kind of hopeuless fatalism. In the sense: "People in this world already have destroyed the ressources and they will keep going with destroying the ressources". Now I could ask you (and punch back) same question: Are you kidding ? Is this seriously your thinking ?

    But so it does not work. Its already possible to have 100% Eco boats... to give one single example: The first eco-efficient race boat

    It was already announced in 2011...
    ACCIONA combines innovation and competitiveness in the design of the world’s first zero-emissions ocean-going racing yacht

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI5uohmuL3M


    Its up to us to learn from such pre-thinkers... and I don't admire new (foiling) boats coming in the market, with big sponsor logos on it.. not caring about such worthfully thoughts being addressed by my question.

    Alex Thomson unveils new Hugo Boss boat for Vendee Globe glory
    [​IMG]

    I could puke seeing such sponsor boats as it makes clear that the marketing chiefs and product managers of these global brands haven't understood anything neither about nature nor about sailing. No single word about "eco friendly" in the promotion of this brand new boat. Stupid guys having nothing learnt from the past. A bunch of backwards oriented folks this boss team must be... using their intelligence in the wrong direction for big show making.

    Its your own resonsability that you keep yourself blind on both eyes... ignoring that people can (and should) learn from their mistakes... from their own or from makes done by others. I dont accept the "easy going": It is as it was and so it shall always be.

    Here clearly its "the bad old times" and not the "good old times". Not my way to repeat the mistakes of our sailing ancestors highly consuming the ressources of mother earth.
     
  7. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    skip Jay,

    You are reading way too much into my post (the name BTW is Petros <greek> not Pedro <spanish>). Please do not put words in my mouth or attribute motives. Anyway to make sailing, and sailing fast and fun, that costs less would be good for the sport, and allows more people to participate. I have always been a advocate of reuse and recycle where it is economically justified (often political campaigns waste money and resources stupidly spending more to recycle rather than disposing of waste in more conventional means, this wastes resources). Of the 25 or more small boats I have built, most are made from salvaged (i.e. recycled) materials as much as possible.

    I am not faulting you for that at all, if you save money on a build, or in operations of the boat, you have saved resources. This is ultimately good for the environment, as well as allowing a more people to participate in a generally safe and healthy sport. It just seems a completely false motive to say it is "eco", more like a marketing buzz word than anything legitimate. It sounds dishonest. However, trying to make boating more accessible, less costly and attractive to a larger audience is a great motive. Just be honest with your intentions, too often large companies use the "eco" motive to sell overpriced merchandize to unsuspecting consumers who are concerned about the enviroment.

    I drive a "recycled" 30 year old toyota that was headed to the crusher hand I not received it in a trade (the other guy got the better deal). It is now on its 4th engine and 3rd transmission, it has almost 400,000 miles on it. I am perfectly happy with it, great fuel econmy and very reliable, despite its age. It would be a wasteful shame to replace it only because of its age, too many great old cars end up in the crusher when there is still a lot of life in them. Much of our home uses salvaged building materials, not only is the old hard wood floors and hardwood staircase look great, but we would have never been able to afford the house had we bought everything at retail. In both cases I did a lot of the labor myself. I know what real tangible savings can be achieved with careful selection of salvaged materials, I built most of the sea kayaks and dingy sailors for less than many spend at Starbucks buying over priced coffee in a year.

    I have visions of building a small 2 seat flying home built aircraft some day, using all savaged materials for under $2000. just to see if it could be done on such a low budget. If you want to call this "eco" than feel free, but I think of it as being "cost effective", more bang for the buck.
     
  8. pogo
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    pogo ingenious dilletante


    Nee.

    NEIN!!!!!!!
     
  9. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I agree with Petros. Super yachts with "green certification" is an oxymoron. Sailing is a waste of energy to amuse ourselves. I do it, but don't pretend to be green. Further, developing and building new boats instead of salvaging the millions going into landfills, hardly sounds like a green policy.
     
  10. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    where do all the plastic sails go when they get replaced?
    I think some powerboats have less polluting footprints than yachts
     
  11. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    Basically when talking about the development of foils, it is science at play. One of the basic tenants of that enterprise is that you follow the trail where it leads, you don't insist on knowing today what it will yield tomorrow, largely because one can't know.

    Efforts that are largely marketing are still positive up to a point. Keeping people enthused about a direction that may in the main not be anywhere near as exciting as racing boats are to some. Unfortunately society has lost much of any concern for honesty it once had so people are cynical about such matters.

    Foils are cool because they show green can be high performance. Most green stuff is slow, like electric cars do not provide the envelope of performance most people brought up on gas would prefer. Sails are very old technology, and not normally associated with great speed, but foils allow speed by almost any measure, I think that is inspiring.
     
  12. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated


  13. powerabout
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    powerabout Senior Member

    foiling on container ships would be a good place rather than on toys
     
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