Alternative to marvelous Buccaneer 24

hi Gary

put me on the list too

regards

 

"So I don't think the shoe will fit."
More like a sandal !

 

How about a bedroom slipper.

No. Joking aside, "Three Devils" is very exciting.
The 8 x 8 configuration, the skinny hulls, the wing mast, the angled foils, the rounded hulls, the reflexed bow and the lines in general, has me drooling.

It will be very fast, very wet, and very very good for racing.

BUT. An alternative to the "Marvelous Buccaneer 24" it is not.

Lock Crowther designed the B24 to very strict requirement-- to be a cruising boat big enough to accommodate a nuclear family, small enough to have its main panels cut from three sheets of plywood attached end to end. To be economical to build, while at the same time needing only basic carpentry skills to build quickly in a small space. It met all these requirements in spades.
It was never intended to be a racing boat, but that is what it became. A very fast cruising boat which curiously enough won races. It has a comfortable sheltering cockpit, an important factor in a fast cruising boat, a light and airy cabin, not a claustrophobic cuddy. It has a galley, food storage, room for a chemical toilet, Battery, fuel storage, etc:---and it's fast.
Sure not everyone wants to race, but it"s nice to sit comfortably and effortlessley passing all the other boats while getting to a distant destination dry and relaxed.
The B24 was the best selling and most successful of all Lock Crowthers designs.
Much as I love "Three Devils" as a design, as a state of the art racing boat , I don't think it is an alternative to the "Marvelous Buccaneer 24" as a fast pocket cruiser.

 

Agreed, OS7, the marvelous B24 - but compared to Sid, Devils is a bit more towards cruising (joke). Anyway drawing is at an early stage - I'll post cabin changes later.

 

Thanks Gary.
I had hoped that you would take what I said in the right way.
I was afraid that I would get a right roasting from some quarters, but I am relieved that you appreciate where I was coming from.
Thanks again, Paddy.

 

Another interesting design from Garys mind.

It will be be interesting to see the final design. Especially if he can rain in his ideas, how ever that would make it boring. It would be a cruising design compared to Sid.

 

Looks very cool Gary.

Whats the displacement? roughly? looks tiny under the water

 

Have played around a little with the Devils; put some more rocker in and a few other changes. Displacement for the main hull is 0.207 tonnes (200m3 volume) - but this is a foil boat and the foils will be starting to lift the platform even at low speeds - so conventional boat displacement figures don't relate quite the same, except at rest. I would figure 275 kgs overall platform weight.

 

Hi Gary,

I hope this is a pertinent question; What program do you use to design up your boats? The renderings are very impressive.

Regards and keep up the good work

Tony

 

Freeship - but to get the differing modes like the first two images, you hit the right button on the design and choose wireframe, shade, Gaussiun curvature or zebra shading: the lines plans can be selected from the project window.

 

Idea for a flexible wing mast/sail

Hi all - absolute novice here, so be gentle with me.

Have been following the discussions about wing masts and following all the links, pics and videos - fascinating stuff!!

It occurred to me, based on ideas from both the Romanians (Hungarians??) rig and the Festo Smart Bird's ribs and control arms, that combining the two approaches could result in a method of producing a wing "sail" rather than a wing "mast" that would be adustable "on the fly" such that the asymmetric shape could be either "to port" or "to starboard" - without the need for the type of "fixed shape" on a pivoting structure such as Gary is building.

Am not capable of using design or CAD software, so a "rough sketch" of the idea is attached. Apologies for quality...or lack thereof

Points:
- the sail is a double-luff, stripped into sailtrack either 'side' of the mast, but folding about the vertical leach pole (not attached to it)
- the mast I've drawn as a basic round tube, but this need not be the only plan profile, it could be a 'half ellipse' with the curve facing forward and the sailtrack for the luffs attached at the two 'corners', or even could re-use an existing semi-elliptical or aewrofoil-shaped ally mast, just with the sailtracks attached either 'side'
- the 'ribs' would be deformable - plastic, carbon, or even ply - and stiff enough to resist wind forces (might need to be carbon....I don't have the math to calculate this)
- top and bottom would be a "boom/beam" similar to the Romanian rig (or were they Hungarians??), supporting the vertical "leach pole" and intermediate 'cam poles' - whihc could be either ally or carbon tube
- the ribs would be fastened to the sail fabric, but have rings or similar to attach to the rotating 'cams'. The cams simply slide up and down the 'cam poles'
- the idea is that the 'normal' action of rotating the mast would automatically tension (or slacken, respectively) the 'cams' and thus adjust the curvature of the asymmetric wing/sail
- additionally the ribs, acting like 'battens' in a normal sail, would enable the sail to be dropped by detensioning the lifting halyards, and thus enable the wing/sail to be reefed
- the "scissor jacks" shown in the vertical elevation at top and bottom would be operated by a detachable winch handle, which would operate a cam that forced the 'scissor blades' apart to release tension, or together to increase tension, thus pushing the cam pole away (the cam pole and leach pole would be attached to each other by a brace top and bottom to keep them equidistant and make them move as one)

Obviously the upper boom/beam would still be hanging at the top of the mast but could be of either ally, ply or carbon - again, someone else can do the calcs.

The outer moving poles would maybe need a nylon bearing at top and bottom them, to enable them to roll/slide along the inner surface of the boom beams.

Ok, so maybe it's not too "elegant" a structure, and my vertical elevation is clearly not proportional - would need to be taller, and more cams and more ribs probably - but I hope you get the idea.

Hope that all makes sense - but if not, feel free to ask questions or make comments.....and please forgive the 'amateur' speaking up from 'below the salt'.....

As I recall someone once said: "the only bad idea is the one you keep to yourself"

 

Gooday 'buzz' Welcome to our group of 'lefties' or 'wingies' or what ever you want to call us. Nice to see a new face & some new ideas. How much sailing have you done to come up with that idea? Looks fine !! Any calculations as to what it might weigh - for say - a 45' to 50' high mast - Ooops that should be 14 mtrs to 16 mtrs high. I'm sure you know just how damaging weight aloft can be to sailing performance. I'm sure we'll have lots more questions as the time goes by. Thanks for including the drawings !!

Great to see you joining all of us. Ciao for now from Far North queensland - james

 

Hey, James

I'm in NSW, so a long way south of you!

As to "how much sailing I've done to come up with that idea"..???

Zero.

I'm an 'occasional unpaid crew'.

When much younger sailed Pittwater on friend's beach cats. Again, I was 'ballast', hanging off the trap and 'hunting' for balance up and down the windward hull.

Recently have been re-inspired by crewing a mate's 47ft Spindrift on Pittwater. They 'let' me crank the headsail winch. lol

But I read a heck of a lot, and 'think' about 'stuff'. And occasional a light goes off - maybe only a dim candle, but it is our human ability to take 'this' and put it with 'that' which has driven innovation thoughout history.

But as I said in my OP, I don't have the math to calc this as a project - hell, I have trouble balancing my cheque book!

So the ACTUAL 'design' work will have to be done by those more capable than I.

But I think the idea has potential, because it answers a couple of the critical issues for solid wings that Gary already mentioned, like:

- what to do with the 'sail' when the boat is moored

- how to change symmetry side to side for best profile to wind

- how to reef in high wind environments

The first and third are answered by the ability to 'drop' segments of the 'sail' which ought to enable reefing. I haven't given any thoughts to reef points, but I can't see any reason why clews or reef hanks could not be built into the sail.

It was looking at the thin, flexible carbon-fibre ribs of the Smart Bird that got me thinking. "What if that flexible trailing edge attached to a servo could be utilised as the trailing edge of a wing sail?"

Lots of servos could potenitally enable the entire wing area to deform all over (should that be useful, I don't know) but as drawn (imagined?) I looked at how to do it automatically to simplify the mechanics.

As wing mast sailors are already accustomed to rotating the mast, and forces, systems and methods for doing so are 'known', then this is simply utilising an existing technology but expanding its utility....

One thing I did think about was that stiffness of the leach pole might be an issue with the forces acting upon it, but if it was, say, a 'herringbone truss' design, possibly even a triangulated truss, utilising small diameter ally or carbon tubes to keep it light.....

....because the sail does as you point out contain a lot of mass up high, so it might only be suitable for a racer that can fly its hulls and thus limit some of the pitching that a heavy rig would exacerbate.

But if you consider that Gary's rig is solid ply over both sides of the 'wing' planes, and in this design those large areas could be something superlight like mylar or such....then that saved weight could go into the pole stiffening structures.

Also this idea could be a lot wider than Gary's wing without much additional weight as the vertical members are the same, and the ribs being thin and flexible and light would not add much, nor would the sail fabric, whereas to make's Gary's any wider would add all that ply weight.

I also can't see any reason why it could not be angled backwards at the top for a more pleasant aesthetic, but as drawn is 'KISS' principle. Rectangular is easy.

And I did note on that video of the Romanian craft (Attraktor, was it called?) that they had something that looked like carbon-tube trusses at the boom level, and lots of 'ribs' all the way up, so if that structure can be built....

Well, I gues we wait and see if someone is willing to calc it out and build a prototype. I can't wait

 

Buzzman.
From what you say, you must be sailing with Jim Geddes on board "Te Arawa".

 

Sprung!

LOL!

Thought you might know him, Pat!

Yes, have been out on 'The Lucky Boat' a couple of times. It's skipper is one of the nicest fellers you could meet, as I guess you know.