AC 45 World Championship Cheating??

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Aug 10, 2013.

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  1. GogogoStopSTOP
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    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    To SteveMellet & Blackburn... What I actually said about the tip of an iceberg was... "This is just the tip of the iceberg! ROTFLMAO, LOL, Ha!" It was totally tongue in cheek.

    And SteveMellet, you said: "If I'd bought a strict One-design boat... I would be all over the supplier demanding that they replace the faulty designed or built part..."

    I was only quoting the Measurement Committee report! I hope you don't have a beef with me. The report is damning in a lot of ways, it damns OTUSA & the design. It essentially says there was a catorgory of repair that were permitted & workers were allowed to make them without records & with verbal permission. Check the last paragraph on page 4.
     
  2. GogogoStopSTOP
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    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    Kingpost, Auckland, New Zealand, January 14, 2011

    Here's the main kingpost as it was assembled in NZ in 2011. The spigot looks just a very little different than the one in the Measurement Committee Report, August 2013.

    So, tomorrow we'll know, the White Smoke will rise from the chimney, there'll be a real Starting Gun.
     

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  3. SteveMellet
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    SteveMellet Senior Member

    Hey, I have no beef with anyone here, just polite disagreement with some from time to time. :)
    My point was exactly what I said - I think that the AC organisers have allowed this to happen - if it's really a strict OD class, why allow any modifications or repairs - unless done by the class builder. This only opened up the potential for exactly what has happened - all teams 'repairing' things that aren't broken. At the level this event is being played, it is to be expected that all players will optimise their boats as much as possible. The possibility for teams to 'repair' something to be better than it was originally designed, exists.

    I sailed Dart 18's for a few years, if you tied the incorrect knot on a line, you could be protested. If you had the incorrect wind indicator (a useless piece of wool) you could be DSQ. Lord help you if you had a non-class legal paddle on board, a piece of equipment I've never seen in use. That is in a non-professional sailing class, so I would like to believe that the AC45 class should be more strict as to what can be modified and what can't. Why on earth is everyone modifying kingposts, unless they were badly designed or built, and then why not demand a replacement part if you paid such a big sum for the boat ?
    If that route were followed, there would be no grey area as to whether this whole incident was cheating or not - a modified part would be clear proof of cheating.
    Now we have a jury which has to decide based on facts manufactured to do the least amount of damage to the team involved, with the truth having long been dissolved in the wake of the boats crossing the finish line.
     
  4. Blackburn
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    Blackburn Senior Member

    Or, they decide they need to discuss it over the weekend.

    Hey! That would mean we get the weekend off!

    :)
     
  5. GogogoStopSTOP
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    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    You can't make this stuff up, right? ROTFFLMFAO. I'm kicking myself for not taking the offer to go see the race. Nufsaid.
     
  6. GogogoStopSTOP
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    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    A Cheatin' Heart

    Well, well, well... be careful what you wish for folks!
    "Ban those cheats!" "Expel them from all future competition..." "Take 6 races away from them..." "Sink-Em!" LOL!

    This is going the way of all classics. You should never wish too hard for ill-fate for someone else. Another postponement. It's been 2 weeks since they interviewed 16 OTUSA guy's & 5 employees of ACRM... still no decision, another postponement. Now more guys to be interviewed, to give testimony. I'll bet the Jury is sayin', "Wow, now what do we do!?"

    Why is this so hard? I thought it was so cut & dry? The lead shot, the longer forward kingpost, the main kingpost... "The kingpost are longer than any other boats & now we know they are heavier than all other boats." If this is so, why the postponements, why the delay? Why? The Jury's in over it's head.

    Ahhhh, could it be? Ugh? I wonder if someone said, "Go ahead, MAKE MY DAY!" OR Suppose someone said, "Do you think I spent all this money to be DISGRACED!?"

    Sometimes decisions look so easy, until you discover there are consequences you never though of before... as they say nowadays... "Just sayin"
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Great post from AC anarchy:

    easyrider, on 31 Aug 2013 - 17:32, said:

    "Regardless of what the IJ does, if Oracle wins there will forever be a massive asterisk beside the win even if it is not deserved."



    ^ No. There will be a small asterisk stating that some members of OR were caught cheating in a feeder series that was designed to stir interest around the world and allow teams of lessor funding to showcase their talents in an effort to attract funding in this, or future sailing cycles. It will also state that by structure, the AC 45 WS had no influence on the outcome of the 34th AC racing.

    It is horribly unfortunate to our sport that some members of OR have taken our sport to such low ethical levels. I was raised in racing and have raced at all levels for many years and have always known that sportsmanship is a priority.

    I await the juries actual FINDINGS and conclusions. Not the lynch mob mentality thrown about this site and many half assed media outlets. (remember their trying to sell ads so fanning flames is a good thing in their eyes).

    If OR loses some team mates and even a few points (which I don't think will be the case) and then go on to win on the water it will be pretty weak for opposition fans to then and forever point to the "cheating scandal" as why OR won. It will also be inaccurate.

    So please stop laying the groundwork for excuses if OR is able to pull out a victory.

    And if NZL wins, I will stand and applaud the team for its great effort and success on the water.
     
  8. GogogoStopSTOP
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    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    I completely agree Doug. OR made alterations, it is alleged,
    1. To a boat that is not even used in the America's Cup defense,
    2. In a race they did not have to win for them to remain the defender,
    3. To parts that didn't provide a performance advantage.

    Where is all this going? If it's so cut & dried, as the NZ press & certain ill informed American press indicate it is, why so many delays in punishing OR?

    This whole thing isn't about cheating any longer. This is now about how the IJ can get away with the least amount of criticism. Punish no one & guys like easyrider, the NZ press & ETNZ, et al, will howl like pigs. Go too far in the punishment & risk the wrath of Ellison & those behind the scenes who are certainly preaching a steady hand on the tiller. This has degraded to witlessness. All that money, power, opportunity... gone overboard by guys gone overboard.

    The delays are potentially a good oman for OR.

    gggss
     
  9. oceancruiser

    oceancruiser Previous Member

    Sports News papers here are quoting that the international jury may deduct 2 points from ORACLE in the Americas Cup AC 72 races as a penalty for the AC extreme 45 fiasco, meaning ORACLE would have to win 11 races before ETNZ won 9 races to retain the cup.

    I my opinion this would be totally unfair, unreasonable and unjustified as the AC 45s have nothing to do with winning the Americas cup. Oracle have all ready lost there points in the AC 45 series and title as punishment.

    A better decision would be to ban ORACLE for 2 years in all AC extreme 45s class races.

    That would be like penalising a country at the olympics in a yacht class for cheating and then penalising also all other yacht classes for that nation even if another class has already won a yacht gold medal for their nation and asking them to return their gold medal.

    Protest loudly now against such a decision.
     
  10. Blackburn
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    Blackburn Senior Member

    ...

    They would have had a blast in the ballroom of the Titanic, those Oracle fans now downplaying any impact from Jury rulings, which they haven't yet heard?

    Are there on-site journalists covering this who are saying it's not as bad as it looks? Seems the opposite is the case. A Tweet Saturday on VSail:

    "Could Oracle Team USA overcome a four-point penalty in the America's Cup match? They would need 13 wins!"

    Two to four points is being batted around, two to six sailors are mentioned in regard to Article69 penalties, the Jury is on the one hand required to come down hard on rule-breaking and protect the reputation of the Cup, without doing further damage. I would not be happy with how this story has dragged on, largely due to Oracle's handling of it, were I one of them.

    Dana Johannsen at the NZHerald hadn't been focused on the cheating story yet, but after an interview with Prada's Max Sirena published Sunday she wrote a separate more in-depth piece for Monday:

    excerpts:
    And then of course there will be an unknown amount of bad press, which it seems couldn't be averted away from coinciding with the start of the finals.
     
  11. GogogoStopSTOP
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    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    If you go to any newspaper in Boston, all you get is the Patriots, if you go to Philly, all you get is the "Eaggels," in Long Island, it's "Jets, Jets, Jets..."

    Go to any newspaper called NZHerald, and all you get is, "huge disruption," "2 races, 4 races, 6 races, 8 race penalty." "greatest embarrassment in racing history,"

    And on top of that, the NZ press hasn't yet heard the Jury verdict.


    P.S. What's an "on-site journalist???" Journalism is like the Circus... it's all hype about stuff that THEY think looks risky & bearded fat ladies, midgets, "muscle men," The greatest MAJOR SIMILARITY of all, when the Circus or Journalist leave town, all that's left from there stay is Horse $hyt, Elephant $hyt, Pony $hyt, Camel $hyt..... $hyt all over, everywhere.
     
  12. GogogoStopSTOP
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    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    Penalizing an AC72 boat for an AC45 boat's kingpost sins is like penalizing the Yankees for using long, corked bats in Spring Training.
     
  13. Blackburn
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    Blackburn Senior Member

    ...

    God forbid there should be additional unreported illegal alterations made to Oracle's boats, about which (almost) everyone has politely not speculated too much.

    Anyone speak Italian here? Google translate doesn't manage this very well:

     
  14. GogogoStopSTOP
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    GogogoStopSTOP Junior Member

    The literal translation from Google says:

    ""As we all undoubtly know, as we all believe, these Americans are cheats, they're gangsters... just ask Don Ellisione. The Americans are unique in the world: since they are so inventive & productive, they can't help themselves... they MUST stay busy or they MUST cheat, it's in their blood, if they feel bored, they cheat! Just look at their Revolutionary war with Great Britain... they hid behind trees! Why do you think the world calls them Yanks!? Besides, they stole the America's Cup... from the beginning, correct-a-mondo... no?""

    If you don't believe me, NZHerald will have a 'down under' translation shortly. If you don't believe me or Google, wait for the ETNZ guys to tell NZHerald what to write, then you'll know.
     

  15. Blackburn
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    Blackburn Senior Member

    ^^^

    lol

    Sono molto spiacente di dirvi, Gogo.

    Purtroppo, avete fallito il vostro grado in classe di Googolo.

    ;)
     
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