90 x 90 Race Multi

[RHough]

It is looking more and more that the AC will be sailed in multi-hulls.

BMWO has challenged and set the dimensions or their boat as 90' LWL, 90' Beam, and 3' boards up.

If you were given those numbers and clean sheet of paper, what would your boat look like?

The reality is that the boat must be on the start line July 4, 2008 so time is a factor.

Who does BMWO have working on this, and what design have they chosen? Cat, Tri, or PROA?

No open oceans to cross, just a 20 miles W/L and a triangle.

What would work?

What would not?

[yipster]

i cant belive thats all the ruling but you got me thinking
foils / boards with tailored area rule bottoms spring to mind but need CFD
asimetric wingmasts with inflatable wingsails on a stepped proa perhaps
with legs possibly a mile a minute there is a need for quik cornering
Tom Speer's idea of tacking the step of the mast sounds faster
anyone else wanna give it a guess or hit me?

[RHough]

Originally Posted by yipster

i cant belive thats all the ruling but you got me thinking
foils / boards with tailored area rule bottoms spring to mind but need CFD
asimetric wingmasts with inflatable wingsails on a stepped proa perhaps
with legs possibly a mile a minute there is a need for fast cornering
anyone else wanna give it a guess or hit me ?

Yep, the rules are wide open under a DoG challenge. BMWO has limited themselves to 90x90x3 but Alinghi can do what they like.

[DGreenwood]

A tri is obvious. But that is not enough time to get too fancy. Design based on known technology. No time for testing. VPLP, Nigel Irens, Ollier or Morrelli and Melvin are going to have to come into play to optimize time.
This is going to be an insane build schedule!
I wouldn't mind owning the top 4 or 5 ORMAS right now. I guess they will get leased for training over the winter.
Being a French Multi sailor probably just got a lot more profitable?

[Kiteship]

Originally Posted by RHough

Yep, the rules are wide open under a DoG challenge. BMWO has limited themselves to 90x90x3 but Alinghi can do what they like.

Mmmm, not quite "what they like;" the Deed of Gift specifies a maximum length of 90'.

I'm thinking trimaran as well, likely a Lake Garda type, rather than the big ORMA boats. Those are meant for much rougher, offshore conditions.

Like this one, but scaled up: http://www.morrellimelvin.com/sailbo...1-Alinghi.html

Note the name of the boat--and the owner. ;-)

KiteShip

Big ORMA includng lifting foils. No big experiments. This won't be the ridiculous cat vs monoslug we saw before. This will be close to the essence of what many of us think the Cup should be: a contest between nations; a contest between technologies with match racing incidental to the whole thing. This idea of building monoslugs to enhance the ability to match race is a travesty. Country vs Country- Technology vs Technology.
And what a race it will be!
PS.- I'm not at all convinced that this is going to happen.......

[Chris Ostlind]

I like your attitude on this, Doug... with one caveat.

It's never again going to be about one nation vs another, unless the written rules specifically say so. It's now totally about the best man on the planet and how much will it take to get him. It matters not from where he came, only that he can deliver the goods. Then it's about personalities and how they might mesh in a particular regime. There are already two mini Gods on the scene, so it could get interesting quickly.

There are a few hotshoe Americans when it comes to monster multihulls, but the richest harvest is in the harbors of them French dudes. They've been banging these things around for many years, learning all the crazy nooks and crannies that a big fast multi has to offer.

And, isn't the Alinghi "tri" really more of a vestigial trimaran, a gamer cat if you will, rather than functional trimaran? No harm no foul on the name game, but when the center hull flys in 8 knots, it's hardly about supporting the boat in the water. More a honking beamy cat with a need for structure.

Yeah, it could very well be one of those types that does the job.

[DGreenwood]

I don't think this has much chance of being exciting. My guess is if it is held on SF bay it will be something of a one punch prize fight...a knock out in the first ten seconds. Only time to build a single untested boat and I doubt either team will remain conservative in their design or sailing of the boat. Without real time to develop this could be a short contest.

[Chris Ostlind]

While I agree with the basic issues, there are two schools of thought on the race, itself.

One is to lay it all out there and let the chips fall where they may. A direct and very powerful statement if you have the goods to back it up.

The other is to take a bit of a wait and see for the initial (one race, depending on how the other guy actually won) part of the event and push the other guy into a major breakage or screw-up. With seven races (?) to decide the whole thing, there's no panic in doing a pressure induced throttle job on the guy who jumps out there, just to see what he's got.
Gotta weigh the opponent's crew strength, the boat design potential and the conditions present in order to formulate a strategy.

A truly fast boat will simply brick the opponent and it's over. Anything else is all about the head game and a large measure of luck.

This stuff is seen all the time in other events in all sports and it seems to work out as a 50-50 type of reality, so cast your take accordingly.

Let the mini-Gods lay their assumed masculine units on the table and the game will be engaged.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

While I agree with the basic issues, there are two schools of thought on the race, itself.

One is to lay it all out there and let the chips fall where they may. A direct and very powerful statement if you have the goods to back it up.

The other is to take a bit of a wait and see for the initial (one race, depending on how the other guy actually won) part of the event and push the other guy into a major breakage or screw-up. With seven races ...

The DoG fight is three races:

All such races shall be on ocean courses, free from headlands, as follows: The first race, twenty nautical miles to windward and return; the second race an equilateral triangular race of thirty-nine nautical miles, the first side of which shall be a beat to windward; the third race (if necessary) twenty nautical miles to windward and return; and one week day shall intervene between the conclusion of one race and the starting of the next race. These ocean courses shall be practicable in all parts for vessels of twenty-two feet draught of water, and shall be selected by the Club holding the Cup; and these races shall be sailed subject to its rules and sailing regulations so far as the same do not conflict with the provisions of this deed of gift ...

No time to get fancy... just get a clean start and put the hammer down.

In big Tri's it won't be tactical, it will be a drag race to the best pressure ...

If you break your boat and DNF, you have less than 48 hours to fix it and get back on the line and have to win the remaining race(s).

It will be rotten for TV and spectators (how many spectator boat will be able to pace 90 foot tris?), but it will be great for the sailing press and the AC. It will be a return to the roots of the AC:

The Challenger says "I'm bringing a X x Y x Z boat to the line on this date."
The Defender says "Fine, we'll pick the boat we want to sail that day, and we'll make the rules and chose the venue."

The deed is silent as to when the venue must be told to the challenger, so the defender can wait to see the challenger's boat and pick a venue that does not suit it.

How confident would you have to be in your design to challenge under those terms?

It could be a 0-10 knot venue or a 18+ venue, can you design a boat that would be a threat in either (and in any wind range in between)?

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by RHough

How confident would you have to be in your design to challenge under those terms?

I guess is depends on how many engines you are allowed to bring on board to facilitate your boat's performance envelope.... (smirking as he leaves the building)

[DGreenwood]

Originally Posted by RHough

The DoG fight is three races:


It could be a 0-10 knot venue or a 18+ venue, can you design a boat that would be a threat in either (and in any wind range in between)?

NOPE!
Besides, that's really boring.

If you show up at a knife fight with a machine gun...guess who wins?
Or how about if we do a roll of the dice for high roll. The tv guys could turn that into sport...couldn't they?

If I were choosing, it would be Etchells..Elisson in one Bertie in the other. Two crew each of their choice. Three races per day for seven straight days. SF Bay...one day at the Gate the next in a light airs venue.

Let's really see who the sailors are??

[RHough]

Originally Posted by DGreenwood

NOPE!
Besides, that's really boring.

Historically, the AC races have been boring. The excitement is in the lead in. What will the challenger look like, how fast will it be? Will our design be up to the task of defending? It should be over on the first beat. One boat has wheels, the other doesn't.

Chis brings up a good point ... how many engines?

If BMWO's design is a RRS compliant non moving ballast, manual power boat, SNG can write SI's that strike those rules and have power everything to trim the wing and pump ballast in and out of the ama's.

If BMWO's boat needs powered systems to perform, SNG write SI's that use all the RRS.

Knowing this could happen, why did BMWO specify a 90 x 90 x 3 boat?

If you thought the 1988 Cat vs DoG fight was a joke, just wait until this AC plays itself out. Has all the makings of the most expensive pissing match in AC history.

[sailfishndaddy]

Moved Mess.

[DGreenwood]

Not trying to toss you out Sailfishdaddy...if you start a new thread under the Multihull heading and delete this one you will likely get a better response to your questions.