50 foot catamaran building budget

[olliric]

Hello,
I am putting together a budget for building a 50 foot performance sailing catamaran to live on. It will be an Australian kit design in duflex panel that I will build in a developing country.
I have already got some estimates from the kit suppliers but they seem a bit too optimistic and/or approximate. Before I start, I want to come up with a budget as accurate as possible.
I am preparing a spreadsheet with actual costs (from internet vendors) for the vast majority of equipment as well as the actual weight of every single piece.
The weight budget is also important to realize the level of performance I may end up with.
So far I am progressing well using Westmarine and other internet vendors. Although they are not the lowest prices I can get, they may represent the final actual cost once I factor in the shipment and cost of the odd bit and pieces I did not count at this stage.
One thing it's difficult to get a price for at this stage is the mast and sails. I hope somebody here can give me some good figures.
It will be an alloy rig about 19 m high with syntetic rigging to save weight, mainsail track and cars, 3 furlers (screacher, genoa, staysail) all fittings excluding winches (I have got those).
Sails will be about 120 Sqm (genoa and main) mid price range with a compromise of performance and durability.
Any info on the budgeting will be appreciated.
I hope somebody out there has gone through this already.
Thanks

[2infocus]

hey i have a 50 x 22 cat built and i need to put inboards and a mastf on aswell and all the accessories to go it still needs a layer of glass faired and painted .. id like to putt all that in before i do all the cosmetics..

how much do you think im looking at?

[olliric]

Originally Posted by 2infocus

hey i have a 50 x 22 cat built and i need to put inboards and a mastf on aswell and all the accessories to go it still needs a layer of glass faired and painted .. id like to putt all that in before i do all the cosmetics..

how much do you think im looking at?

Not sure, the engines (38 HP) should be around 25 G. Mast 35 G and sails (genoa and main) 15G.
It's an informed guess, no hard evidence. It can vary considerably depending on the spec.
I hope somebody can pitch in with hard numbers (scary!).
If my guess is accurate I am probably looking at 400G excluding labor.
So what have you spent for the hull? And what design is it? I am sure you have very interesting info.
Cheers

[jaydh]

hi,

quick ref for ya on what we spent on a 48 foot alloy cat


rig - 25,000aud from allyacht spars 18m
sails - dimension polyant hydronet, spin, stay, main, gen 23,000aud
2 qty yanmar 3ym30 diesel - 18,000aud
props & shafts - 3,500aud
all winches/deck hardware - 17,000aud
misc - heaps!

you can probably get wholesale accounts with a few Ozzie companies to help out. Port Supply (West Marine's wholesale division) is better on some things - more on others. Importing issues may affect ya depending.

A mate got a quote for a full-on 50 foot 11 tonne rig from Allyacht and that was pushing 50kaud. Lots of variables. Allyacht Spars does have excellent service and their shop is well organized. Can't say enough good things about 'em.

hope that helps a bit...any questions shout....

best - J

[olliric]

Originally Posted by jaydh

hi,

quick ref for ya on what we spent on a 48 foot alloy cat


rig - 25,000aud from allyacht spars 18m
sails - dimension polyant hydronet, spin, stay, main, gen 23,000aud
2 qty yanmar 3ym30 diesel - 18,000aud
props & shafts - 3,500aud
all winches/deck hardware - 17,000aud
misc - heaps!

you can probably get wholesale accounts with a few Ozzie companies to help out. Port Supply (West Marine's wholesale division) is better on some things - more on others. Importing issues may affect ya depending.

A mate got a quote for a full-on 50 foot 11 tonne rig from Allyacht and that was pushing 50kaud. Lots of variables. Allyacht Spars does have excellent service and their shop is well organized. Can't say enough good things about 'em.

hope that helps a bit...any questions shout....

best - J

Thanks for the figures. Wow, you got spinnaker, staysail, main, and genoa for 23000 A$! That sounds like a terrific deal. Is the laminate material life expectancy similar to conventional dacron sails. I like the idea of a performance sail but I would like to get at least 5 years of cruising from the sails. What's the spec of the rig you got, what did it come with?
Given that I always end up buying the more expensive stuff, I think 50000 USD for the rig and sails maybe a reasonable figure for me.
As for the engines I would like to get the 39HP Yanmars with saildrives. One with the KMG65E 240 VAC 6 KVA alterator and the other with a regular 150 A 12 VDC alternator.
One of the problems I'll have is shipping the gear to the building site which will be far from the developed world. Especially when it come to the spar.
If I use a figure of 70000 usd for the spar, sails and engine I will spend 200000 USD on gear alone, then there is the kit, labour and shed rent.

Originally Posted by olliric

One of the problems I'll have is shipping the gear to the building site which will be far from the developed world. .

Just a hint: take care when building in a "developing" country, most of them have import duty on this expensive stuff! In some cases you can feel the blood coming out of your hair. I hope you have checked that properly!

Sasha

[olliric]

Originally Posted by M-Sasha

Just a hint: take care when building in a "developing" country, most of them have import duty on this expensive stuff! In some cases you can feel the blood coming out of your hair. I hope you have checked that properly!

Sasha

Of course I will build only in a country where I pay no duties. Lankawi in Malesia is one. In Brazil you don't pay duties as long as the good are for something that is later exported. You get a time waiver on the duties for a reasonable fee.
I believe that there are other countries that do that. It's the only way to attract investors.
Of course I will have to pay "lubricating money" to a local agent and official but it is not a big deal.
Gear is expensive enough, duties would kill the project!
Cheers

[Nordic Cat]

Get your builder to quote you for the stuff that is heavy, or difficult to ship.

50k USD for rig and sails is a good budgetary figure. It won't get you anything fancy, but should be doable.
Make sure you get kit that can handle the loads on a 50 ft cat, probably the same as for a 70 ft. mono. Good large diameter blocks, and minimum 6:1 on the track adjustment.

Check out the Dynex Dux rigging.

Alan

[olliric]

Originally Posted by Nordic Cat

Get your builder to quote you for the stuff that is heavy, or difficult to ship.

50k USD for rig and sails is a good budgetary figure. It won't get you anything fancy, but should be doable.
Make sure you get kit that can handle the loads on a 50 ft cat, probably the same as for a 70 ft. mono. Good large diameter blocks, and minimum 6:1 on the track adjustment.

Check out the Dynex Dux rigging.

Alan

I checked out the Dynex Dux rigging. It's quite interesting and I believe well suited for cats because of the reduced rigging preloads compared with monos (less creep issues). The weight saving and the lack of conductivity are also good advantages.
I just wonder about the longevity and chafe issues at the attachment points and at the spreaders. Also I am not sure if it has been used long enough to provide a solid performance history.
The weight saving alone it a huge draw for me though. What's the standing rigging weight on a 50' cat? How about the mast?
Cheers

[Nordic Cat]

Originally Posted by olliric

I just wonder about the longevity and chafe issues at the attachment points and at the spreaders. Also I am not sure if it has been used long enough to provide a solid performance history.
The weight saving alone it a huge draw for me though. What's the standing rigging weight on a 50' cat? How about the mast?
Cheers

Speak to the guys at Colligomarine about longevity. Chafe can be avoided by design. I would expect at least 8-10 years.

The weight of the mast on a 50 footer? Depends what you make it of, dimensions etc. For a well supported aluminium mast, i would guess around 9-10 kgs/m, plus extras for spreaders etc.

For a 20m mast without the standing rigging I would guess 100-140 kgs.

Hope this helps.

You could also look at the precourt stuff in Canada.

Alan

[olliric]

Originally Posted by Nordic Cat

Speak to the guys at Colligomarine about longevity. Chafe can be avoided by design. I would expect at least 8-10 years.

The weight of the mast on a 50 footer? Depends what you make it of, dimensions etc. For a well supported aluminium mast, i would guess around 9-10 kgs/m, plus extras for spreaders etc.

For a 20m mast without the standing rigging I would guess 100-140 kgs.

Hope this helps.

You could also look at the precourt stuff in Canada.

Alan

Thanks for the lead. I did look at Precourt, they do about the same stuff as Colligomarine. Colligo seems to have a broader range of fittings in particular the titanium plate mast attachement. Very cool stuff indeed, I like going back to basics with rope like in the old days. However, I think there is some fiddling to do now and then. I don't think it is like SS wire that you install and forget about it.
I would think that one should also be able to change the ropes "do it yourself". Once one has the rope lenghts and a set of spare fittings can splice a new rope to the fitting and change one at the time.
If I can get 8 to 10 years of life the choice will be a no brainer.
A couple of minor drawbacks is the increased windage (quite a bit I suppose) and the use of steel for the SSB aerial.
For my weight estimate I counted 600 Kg for complete mast and 3 sails.
Talking about weight, what can be the wiring weight on a 24V liveaboard 50' cat? I have figured 150 Kg and 20 USD/Kg for the materials (wire, terminal, accessories).
Cheers

[Nordic Cat]

Originally Posted by olliric

Talking about weight, what can be the wiring weight on a 24V liveaboard 50' cat? I have figured 150 Kg and 20 USD/Kg for the materials (wire, terminal, accessories).
Cheers

I made use of a spreadsheet where each and every component is plotted in, also its 3 dimensional position in the boat. The actual setup you use will be pretty specific to your boat, distance to and from batteries to the bigger power sources/consumers like winches etc. How much solar? LED or traditional lighting? Point to point wiring or a bus based system? Pumps, their consumption. Freezer, fridges, cooling pumps, other pumps.... the choices are many. Inverter(s) Aircon, battery chargers, MPPT controllers, relays, isolators?

Going 24V will save a lot,so that's a good choice.

The wiring is the cheap stuff, it's all the other stuff that is connected to the wiring that weighs and costs.

I doubt that there are many boat designers who will give you this information in detail for free, it has cost them plenty of time to build up this knowledge, but there might bee some amateurs who have it on their blog.

Here is a site with some good info, but not exactly what you asked for:
http://www.adagiomarine.com/
Look under design.

Hope this helps

Alan

[olliric]

Originally Posted by Nordic Cat

I made use of a spreadsheet where each and every component is plotted in, also its 3 dimensional position in the boat. The actual setup you use will be pretty specific to your boat, distance to and from batteries to the bigger power sources/consumers like winches etc. How much solar? LED or traditional lighting? Point to point wiring or a bus based system? Pumps, their consumption. Freezer, fridges, cooling pumps, other pumps.... the choices are many. Inverter(s) Aircon, battery chargers, MPPT controllers, relays, isolators?

Going 24V will save a lot,so that's a good choice.

The wiring is the cheap stuff, it's all the other stuff that is connected to the wiring that weighs and costs.

I doubt that there are many boat designers who will give you this information in detail for free, it has cost them plenty of time to build up this knowledge, but there might bee some amateurs who have it on their blog.

Here is a site with some good info, but not exactly what you asked for:
http://www.adagiomarine.com/
Look under design.

Alan

Thanks for the lead. Adagio site does have a pdf file with each circuit and weight. It confirms my estimate of 150 Kg. Adagio is 147 Kg and has a more complex 24V/230V system. I have less stuff (no microwave, stand alone genset, electric range, washing machine, dishwasher). I should be able to save further Kgs

Here is the preliminary spec.

•Yanmar sail drive main Engines 39HP (3JH4E, sail drive SD50). AC generator installed on STBD engine between engine and gearbox, 230V 6KW (KMG65E).
•Second alternator installed on PORT engine only, belt driven hot rated 24V 70A
•675 Watt solar panels array (5 x 135W 12v Kyocera KD135GX-LP 150x66cm or 3x 210W 24v) connected in series mounted above dinghy davits, either right on top or higher on level with the cockpit roof. Array area 3.3x 1.5 m (max).
MPPT programmable charge controller (Outback 60A)
•2 inverters/chargers combi 1500Kw 24/230V 35A each, stackable.
•SCR insulation transformer 7KVA for international shore connection and ground isolation.
•House batteries AGM 250 A/h 24v. One engine starting battery.
•DC converter/back up starting battery charger. 24v DC to 12v DC 60 A.

With the limited loads I will have (laptop, stereo, instruments, LED lighting, high efficency keel cooled fridge and freezer, maybe one mainsheet elect winch 46) in the tropics and most days I should be able to run the whole system on solar alone.
The AC big loads are a 120 l/h (1600W) water maker and 2x16000 BTU HVAC . The watermaker could also be run on emergency off the inverters while the other engine is charging and the solar are putting in some amps.

I have to develop some system to eventually design the electric drawings. Do you have or know of some platform I can use?
Thanks & cheers

[Sinclair D-R]

Olliric,

You should check with:
Arild Jensen
<2elnav@netbistro.com>;

[olliric]

Originally Posted by Sinclair D-R

Olliric,

You should check with:
Arild Jensen
<2elnav@netbistro.com>;

Thanks,
Can you tell me a bit more? It's an e-mail address.
Cheers