35th Americas Cup: Foiling Multihulls!

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    35th America's Cup on Foils! ---ACWS Changes

    --First the boats have to foil between 6 and 25 knots of wind -and be faster than displacement versions of the same boat.
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    --Second, easy to fly smaller foilers should be provided to allow some in the audience to experience foiling themselves.
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    --Third, sailing schools should be helped to provide at least one easy to fly foiler so that people in the area of the venue can have a foiling experience whenever they want it within a wind range the same as the AC boats race in.
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    --Fourth, a trailerable easy to fly foiler should be put on the road to travel the country giving demonstrations of foiling to a wide audience.
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    --Fifth, a well produced video should be put together that shows the wide scope of foiler design and development while capturing the excitement of flying foilers from small to large perhaps in consort with the Foiling Week, manufacturers and AC Teams. An emphasis on easy to fly foilers should be included as a significant portion of the video.
    The ACWS/THW/Manufacturer video should be updated once a year.
    =====
    Foiling as a segment of sailing will continue to grow and more and more easy to fly foilers will become available changing the preconceived notions of those that have considered sailing a foiler to be elitist, too athletic, too dangerous,not possible in under 10-15 knots, too expensive etc.
    And a lone naysayer or two will have zero effect on one of the most fun and interesting ways to sail. Foiling is definitely a major part of the future of sailing!
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2016
  2. hump101
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    hump101 Senior Member

    The crowd numbers given for the Portsmouth AC event look a bit strange to me. The 36k in the stands is probably accurate as they presumably had turnstiles or similar, but the numbers elsewhere are just guesswork.

    "Sites in and around Portsmouth" could mean anywhere, and since the event could only be viewed from a limited area of the beachfront, most people in and around Portsmouth would have nothing to do with the AC.

    The number of boats on the water (1000 per day) would imply similar to a round the island race, and that number could never get close to the AC course area to view, the ones at the back would be a mile away. I suspect that the numbers come from the total number of boats on the Solent over the weekend, most of whom had nothing to do with the AC even if they sailed past once or twice, and 11 people per boat sounds a ridiculously high average, 4-6 being more typical. That would give a floating crowd of more like 3-4k for the weekend, which actually I don't think is too bad.

    As such, I would treat the numbers as nothing more than advertisers fluff, as indeed they obviously were last year, so you can't use the numbers as evidence that the event is shrinking or growing unless you know that the degree of exaggeration is consistent, which seems inherently unreliable!
     
  3. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Interesting info. I wasn't there so didn't comment on that.

    Yes, it is of course quite possible that the numbers are BS; in fact I mentioned that the windsurfers claimed 200,000 spectators at the Sylt World Cup (which would mean a ten-fold increase in population and probably physically wouldn't fit) because IMHO it's a classic example of a silly claim, which shows how such marketing BS cannot be relied upon. I was there (hoping someone from the F2 team could get injured before the start so I could take their place) in the peak year of windsurfing and there is no way that the crowd was a fraction of 200,000.

    It's hard to see why the level of exaggeration by the ACWS people would suddenly change, however. Why would the company running the ACWS change the degree of BS so much when it's almost inevitably going to raise issues with sponsors and government suppporting bodies, who if nothing else may have to answer questions about the effectiveness of their spend? There's an old rule of thumb that says that statements that act against a person are more reliable than other statements, so on the balance of probabilities it would seem that the drop is correct.

    But yes, the numbers can be fluff - which is just one more reason why we should ask serious questions about the effectiveness of such regattas. I don't mind it either way - if we trust the claims about spectator figures then the ACWS doesn't look all that good compared to last year or other sailing events like windsurfing, kiting or the Swedish match racing in monos. If we don't trust the claims about spectator numbers then there is no reason to trust any other claim about the AC's impact. Either way, there seems to be no reliable evidence that the AC is fulfulling its stated claims - just like last time.
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  5. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    I'm not sure that I agree that foiling is key to "saving" sailing. At the time when sailing was most popular it was pretty simple boats that rewarded good sailing skills and were able to be home built that pushed things along. At that time I think people had better basic skills with their hands most people knew at least some woodworking skills from school. These days that isn't as common my sisters kids for example never experienced that as part of their schooling. That means they (or their parents) must buy expensive production boats and not gain the valuable experience of building and tweaking their own boats to be competitive. Personally I think that there is a major disconnect between the professional racing circuits and the average club level racing sailor.

    I'm a multihull enthusiast and think sail racing is on a path to nowhere at it's current trajectory. Everywhere I look at club level I see grey heads and few of the enthusiastic young men and women who are required to keep the sport going. Some would argue that we need kids involved I'm dubious about the simplicity of that view, what we need is kids to hang around and become new leaders in sailing. I believe a lot of sailing programs are too focused on racing rather than adventure which holds more appeal for most people. Sure introduce them to racing but make it one facet of the whole experience not the only reason to be on the water in a sailing boat.

    Income inequality and the lack of disposable income are the nail in the coffin for sailing. The sports that will flourish will be those with low ongoing costs associated with them and minimal gear requirements. I'd argue those that are the direct opposite of sailing.
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Corley,I didn't say nor did I imply that foiling was the "key to saving sailing". I think you made some good points, but I think that foiling will be an important part of sailing as time goes by. There are new boats being developed that are completely different than most foilers are today with a major emphasis on ease of flying, light air flying and low to moderate cost. No one should judge the future of foiling based on most of the foilers that exist today. A couple of existing foilers-the Quant 23 and Flo 1 fit the easy to sail and light air foiling part. The Flo 1 and Waszp are both about $10,000 which is relatively inexpensive. But these boats are only the beginning of a whole new breed of foiling sailboat that will contribute to the growth of sailing.
    And as I said earlier I think there are changes the ACWS could make to help promote foiling-and those changes would also promote sailing.
     
  7. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    I guess I'm just noting my experience in club racing a quick look around the hardstands of most Australian yacht clubs reveals a pretty basic and aged fleet. I'd say most boats in the yard at my local yacht club would have a median age of about 25 years. A club race day would see mostly trailer sailors from the eighties with a few more recent boats mixed in. Most of the multihull fleet are the closest to new boats with most in the range of 10 - 15 years old.

    The club training boats are by and large of a similar age. I'm not sure how foilers of the future will be wildly different in their cost profile as far as I can see they will always be a cost premium and more fiddly to setup and use than similar sized "floaters". They require very lightweight construction to be able to fly at low windspeeds. That means professional construction or at least a very capable amateur to achieve the low weight and high strength required. Carbon fibre is expensive and it requires an energy intensive process to make. The boats also need very good sails and fittings to live up to their performance potential. Nothing that I'm seeing in the matrix of requirements indicates that the boats will become wildly cheaper as time goes on.

    The ACWS is more about getting people to watch than get involved but that appears to be the way of the modern world. They have attempted to put some lipstick on the pig with their kids programs which is good but I don't think there is any long term vision. Now I have two young kids who could be potential candidates for sailing programs in the near future but I look at most of what is on offer and don't think I have much inclination to get them involved. They can come out sailing and racing with their dad on the Kraken 25 trimaran which is simple, low cost, low tech and relatively light weight as multihulls used to be. I wont put them through a program that promotes a myopic view of sailing as just racing.
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Foiler Education: Advantage Foils!

    =============
    This is not accurate: the Quant 23 has foiled in lighter air than a Moth or A Cat! And it is a keelboat. More than that it is made of mostly glass, not carbon. The Waszp is mostly glass and aluminum.
    There are myths being perpetuated unintentionally by people who thought they knew that foilers had to be the lightest boat around and made of the most expensive materials, with irritatingly fiddly components requiring constant adjustment. It was a common assumption a couple of years ago and still is to some extent.
    The foil system on the Quant 23 is not "fiddly" to set up and does not need to be adjusted when sailing-other than to retract the windward foil if you choose to. No rake adjustment, no adjustments required at all. Thats why it is regarded as one of the simplest foilers ever produced. More boats with these same characteristics are on the way.....
    What is critical with a foiler is excellent design. And that's the difference with many of the newest boats-that and more designers with a better understanding of how foils work.
    Carbon and excellent sails have been a staple of high performance monos and multi's for years now-and so many think that a foiler which may be capable of higher performance needs an all carbon hull in order to work right. Just not true. And while any boat can benefit from excellent sails, foilers don't have to have the best sails available to function well.
    The new breed of foiler will gradually put to rest these myths with their exceptional performance-not necessarily in terms of speed but most certainly with their ability to foil in light air and the simplicity of their set-ups.
    Foiling in light air is a critical thing when trying to sell a boat to the masses: people simply don't want a foiling sailboat that only foils in the higher part of the windrange like was true with the first production foilers.
    The new boats will make a profound difference in how the public relates to foilers and that will be good for the new foilers and for sailing in general.
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    If the ACWS, AC Teams and groups like The Foiling Week and foiler manufacturers can work together to educate the public, foiler growth will be tremendous and that will be good for sailing as a whole.
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    35th America's Cup on Foils!

    Light air foiling is the direction of foiler design for production boats-at least-since they have to sell to customers who don't want to pay for a foiler that only foils in the upper half of the windrange. Many who know no better assume that foilers designed to foil in light air won't be fast. This is from Scuttlebutt and their coverage of the GC 32 Tour:

    The GC32 is fitted with T-foil rudders and J-shaped* daggerboards/foils, conceptually similar to those used on the America’s Cup catamarans, with adjustable rake on all appendages. However relative to the boat’s size, the foils are substantially larger, allowing the GC32 to foil even in low wind speeds and with much great stability and ease. Despite having big foils, GC32s are fast! Alinghi holds the record with a peak speed of 39.21 knots.

    What this means is that AC45's could be designed to foil in light air-and still be very fast!

    *known by their inventors as up-tip foils!
     
  10. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    So the Quant 23 is not more expensive than an equivalent keel boat that doesn't foil? I couldn't find a current price on it on the web but I'm guessing it will still be higher than a similar non foiling keelboat. I know foiling is your thing so I'm not going to question the value of that simply observe that it will be more expensive than an equivalent non foiling boat full carbon construction or not. The extra performance may or may not swing it over the line for people who are racing.

    The Waszp is over 10k for a very small boat apparently the Waszp is basically one design. I'm not sure how that works out with a tweaker who wants to play around with things. You say that it is affordable, when are you going to buy one? What price is acceptable to you for a foiling beach toy?
     
  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    I think the Q23 is between $60 and $70,000. I don't know how that compares with other 23' keelboats. But my point was not so much about cost as it was about your assertion: ".... and more fiddly to setup and use than similar sized "floaters". They require very lightweight construction to be able to fly at low windspeeds. That means professional construction or at least a very capable amateur to achieve the low weight and high strength required. Carbon fibre is expensive and it requires an energy intensive process to make.
    They do NOT require the ultimate in lightweight construction. They do NOT require carbon hulls. They are NOT more fiddly to set up and use.
    I would expect a modern foiler that is designed to fly in light air to cost more than an equivalent length non-foiling keelboat because it offers more to the customer--NOT because it is built with exotic materials.
     
  12. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    Well Doug, I don't want to hijack your thread on AC35. You believe the extra performance will get people opening their cheque books I don't, that's fine, I guess time will tell what if any commercial foiling solutions become a commercial success.
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Corley, though I disagree with some of what you said, you had some good points. Like you say we'll have to wait and see. I don't think it was a hijack of this thread because what we were talking about is related to what happens with ACWS and the Cup. And all revolutions take time........
     
  14. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member


  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Thanks, Brian-hadn't seen either video......
     
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