22m cruising cat design concept

[Alik]

Originally Posted by Spiv

Alik;
"This is good sample of promotional publication!"
Agree, they want to sell their stuff, so one must read with caution, however the fact is that a directly coupled diesel/ prop engine has some drawbacks to a diesel/ electric drive.

Trains are driven by diesel-electric, the AU navy is spending several billions on diesel electric ships.
Why do submarines and tugs have been using them for decades?.... I could go on for half an hour with examples.

You are right, but this only works for boats having few modes of operation (not as diesel/propeller having one design point). Diesel-electrical system with generator and motor is feasible, but service is more complicated. The problem here is that manufacturers of different types of electrical propulsion systems for pleasure boats often do no tell the truth and speculate with numbers. Also boating press is involved in advertisement of such systems, so people are getting brainwashed about 'better use of torque' and 'electrical motor delivers more power than diesel'. In each case, we should read carefully and do engineering analysis first before claiming electrical system is reasonable for particular boat.

One of good samples of speculation is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP-WK...e=channel_page
He says that 25HP engine delivers only 8HP - it is not true!

[apex1]

Originally Posted by Spiv

Bot you and Alik must learn to give advice without cutting if you want to earn the label of "Professional".

I did know it happens, thank you for proving me right!
And the amateurs then are "granting" us professionals the label of professionalism?

You are right that Becaris has changed his sketches (there is no design), but he did never leave his preconception and still makes wrong claims or statements. (As you too btw.)

Richard

[Becaris]

Your ridiculous claims of my seeking 'praise' are unfounded and just plain rude, as are most of your comments. You obviously have no conception of what I am seeking in posting these concept models (not sketches, if you're going to correct someone). I'll spell it out for you, I have posted a concept for the future. The idea in a post like this is to have others help with positive suggestions to develop and evolve new ideas. Of course there are issues and problems with any concept, particularly one this radical. But that's what concepts are for, radical ideas.

It's often called 'Blue Sky Development'. If you are not familiar with the term it means that at this stage of development you put out any idea and then take a look to see how you could manage it, or if it leads to some other idea. What you don't do in Blue Sky development is stick your head in the sand and close your mind to new ideas, yelling, 'It can't be done, you are stupid! We must always do it the way it was done before!"

I am CEO of two companies, both of which design new products. If any of my engineers ever walked into a design meeting with the rude and negative behavior that Alik has demonstrated I'd fire them on the spot. The term 'professional' has a lot more to it than the ability to spout numbers and ridicule ideas.

If I was here to just seek praise, do you think I would have taken any suggestions by anyone and changed the model? (Which, if you read, you will see that I have done).

<removed personal attack>

[apex1]

[quote=Becaris;290582]

I'll spell it out for you, I have posted a concept for the future.

A bold statement, hear, hear. Others are after the same concept since ages, and we encourage them to go on. They do it professional....

The idea in a post like this is to have others help with positive suggestions to develop and evolve new ideas. Of course there are issues and problems with any concept, particularly one this radical.

NO that is seeking for applause!

The term 'professional' has a lot more to it than the ability to spout numbers and ridicule ideas.

You can hardly imagine how right you are here!!!

If you would be the person you claim to be, and if you would be as familiar with professional developments, as you claim (and I am), you would know that in early stages of developing phantasies into concepts one thing is absolutely forbidden: to say anything positive about the idea!!! Only, and exclusively, constructive critics are allowed to bring a given idea further towards a doable scale.

I must confess, not all the critics deployed here have been of the constructive sort. But not all of your attempts have been either.

And a last word to your professionalism: bear in mind that not all of the contributors here are native English speakers, it makes little sense to show haircutting attitudes (and is unprofessional) when there is a term not convenient for you! And if you like, call your sketches models, they remain to be worlds away from design!

Originally Posted by Alik

I flaged this post to moderator, personal attacks are unacceptable.

correct! Did I say it will turn this way? Laymen never resist to attack pro´s when the ballon bursts.


my
Regards
Richard

[Becaris]

I like how you run to the moderators when you are called unprofessional, yet think nothing of a personal attack calling someone, and I quote, "Bigmouth".

Well, not to worry, as I stated, I am done with all your attacks and will not be returning to read this nonsense any further. I have more important things to do than waste my time reading your unhelpful comments. Attack me all you like, I won't be reading any more of your negative posts anyway.

[sailsocal]

Now that the fighting is over, maybe we can get back to some interesting discussion about electric boats!

The main problem with battery technology is that the energy density is too low -- they just don't store enough energy for the weight/volume. But Becaris and I agree that this technology is moving quickly and should allow for some great new design possibilities in the coming years. It will be a huge step forward when there is no longer a need for diesel engines with their noise, pollution, and maintenance problems. Fuel system, oil system, cooling system, transmission, and hundreds of moving parts, all to be replaced by a simple direct electric drive with one moving part (armature/prop shaft).

One company called PolyPlus is promoting their new technology which could drastically improve the battery capacity. The lithium batteries commonly used in consumer devices and electric vehicles today have an energy density of around 100 Wh/kg. PolyPlus claims:

"Polyplus is developing Li-Sulfur, Li-Air, and Li-Seawater batteries based on protected
Li electrodes. The projected energy density and specific energy for Li-Air batteries is on
the order of 1000 Wh/l and 1000 Wh/kg. PolyPlus intends first to commercialize primary
Li-Air batteries followed by the introduction of secondary Li-Air chemistry. The Li-Seawater
battery is a primary battery system intended for marine applications. The theoretical
energy desity for Li-Seawater is 9000 Wh/kg and 4900 Wh/l, and PolyPlus expects to
deliver cells with practical energy densities of 4000 Wh/kg and 2000 Wh/l."

Sure it's only a press release, but even if the new technology delivers only HALF what they claim it will be a breakthrough. If we had batteries with 9000 Wh/kg, would we even need sail power at all? Probably just as backup for long-distance cruising.

[Gilbert]

Just thought I'd mention that the word professional only means that you are paid to do what you do. Period. It doesn't mean any more than that.

[apex1]

Originally Posted by Gilbert

Just thought I'd mention that the word professional only means that you are paid to do what you do. Period. It doesn't mean any more than that.

Jahhh Gilbert, it does not mean

specialist, technician, person skilled in the art, expert, practitioner, skilled, correct, occupational, vocational

BTW most real professionals do not get paid, they are well established self employed.

Regards
Richard

[Richard Woods]

Agreed. A "professional" boatbuilder may be a 16 year old school leaver who is earning money to buy a motorbike. That is why many production boats are designed to be built very simply. Many home builders build a much better boat.

A "professional" could also be defined as someone with integrity, ie someone who believes in certain values and sticks to them, even if the customer wants otherwise.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

[apex1]

Originally Posted by Richard Woods

Agreed. A "professional" boatbuilder may be a 16 year old school leaver who is earning money to buy a motorbike. That is why many production boats are designed to be built very simply. Many home builders build a much better boat.
A "professional" could also be defined as someone with integrity, ie someone who believes in certain values and sticks to them, even if the customer wants otherwise.

Fully concur!

[Alik]

Another important feature of professional is level of responsibility for his technical decisions and designs.

[Gilbert]

Just in case some don't catch on to what I was implying when I said the word professional means only that you are paid to do what you do, I will clarify a bit.
Being an amatuer or hobbyist does not necessarily imply that you are not a specialist, Technician, person skilled in the art, expert, skilled or correct. It just means you are not paid to do it.

[Spiv]

I talk for myself, but I am sure Bacaris has had enough of this.
Let's all just stick to the thread "22m Cruising Cat Concept", please

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by yipster

like to hear you experts opinion on steyr's integrated solution

I've had an interest in this Steyr concept for a few years myself:
Steyr

There was an interesting point made by someone about 'servicing' such an electronic device coupled in line with the drive train....you might have to 'pull' the main engine to get at some problem with the 'generator'.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Alik

Why are they talking about running diesel at idle speed??? Is there any practical use of running engine at idle speed?

Lots of sportfishers run around a great majority of the day at virtually idle speed.