16' Eagle FBL, an MPX Foiler-the Actual Boat

[HASYB]

Mmmm, don't give up so quickly Doug, why not take on a bit more DIY approach like you did before.
It would be very interesting indeed to see this boat actually build.

Cheers,

Hielan

[Doug Lord]

Thanks, Hielan. I'm not giving up yet but the costs are way in excess of what I had anticipated. I have to do it this way because otherwise I couldn't possibly get it done. If I try the "DIY" approach you're referring to I stand an excellent chance of being permanently crippled. I need to have a back operation that will "fix" my problem but it will take me out for 9-mos-to a year. I want to get this boat or another design of mine sailing before I do that.

[Phil Locker]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Just received a quote from Competition Composites(formerly Phils Foils http://www.fastcomposites.ca/site/ ) for the curved foils for this boat including trunks:
$1800 cores, laminated to the radius and section(63412) I specify,
$1600 carbon lamination of the core,
$900 , trunks that allow angle of incidence adjustment.
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Total= $4300(canadian dollars-but there is very, very little difference)

These guys are the best that I know of-I'm not sure I can afford this though-since I drastically underestimated cost in my preliminary figures.

Unfortunately we just can't think of a cost effective way of accurately shaping the cores to Doug's required radius. Not on our 3-axis machine anyway. It would be very fiddly work, especially as wood cores are requested and the scale is so small. Foam you might be able to shape flat and then bend. Then even for laminating, to keep the shape accurate it will be necessary to vacuum bag into a shaped jig.

Phil
Follow our workshop tweets @CCIComposites

[Doug Lord]

I'm still looking into many different options but this one is likely dead: estimated cost for having a "blade like" hull built is $3500 bringing the cost to over 20 grand which I just cannot spend.
Looking again at the hull that I have which was the basis of the SRT thread. The downside of using it has been the mods required and the all up weight.
I'm considering a small planing monohull that would allow me to test some monohull related concepts I've developed over the last few years as well as experiment with DSS-but cost is a factor since I have to have the hull built to my design-can't build it myself now.
So we'll see what can be worked out.....

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Just received a quote from Competition Composites(formerly Phils Foils http://www.fastcomposites.ca/site/ ) for the curved foils for this boat including trunks:
$1800 cores, laminated to the radius and section(63412) I specify,
$1600 carbon lamination of the core,
$900 , trunks that allow angle of incidence adjustment.
====
Total= $4300(canadian dollars-but there is very, very little difference)

These guys are the best that I know of-I'm not sure I can afford this though-since I drastically underestimated cost in my preliminary figures.
-------
Other known and estimated costs:
1) Hull-Blade 16' $1000 plus $1000 mods(est)-$2000 total. Falcon Marine( http://www.falconmarinellc.com/ ),
2) 28' new Forte( http://www.forterts.com/structural.html ) 2.8" tube for cross arms-$2044
3) Mast, repaired A Class wing mast, est. -$1100
4) Sails-$1600 Sails by Morgan( http://www.villageoutfitters.com/sails_by_morgan.php ) est.(high tec material)
5) amas(and "curved pieces"-see SRT thread) $2500-experimental- styro and carbon, Rockledge Architectural(Sharon Dixon)( http://architecturalfoamandart.com/ ) and Falcon Marine.
6) Main foil/Bradfield mainfoil,daggerboard and trunk $3500-Falcon Marine.

Total including curved foils above: $17,044

For that I get an extremely fast small tri with better Sa/ws numbers than most small boats including the Moth. The only small tri I know of that can say that. And we all know how things change in building but I'm fairly certain of my weight estimates and there is built in slack.

[Corley]

It's a salient point unfortunately. I think we all crave multihulls made of the best materials with the lightest cores but the cost just starts to go off the scale. You never know Doug you might be able to revisit this project at a later date nothing is ever dead until you lose the desire to cease pursuing it.

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by Corley

It's a salient point unfortunately. I think we all crave multihulls made of the best materials with the lightest cores but the cost just starts to go off the scale. You never know Doug you might be able to revisit this project at a later date nothing is ever dead until you lose the desire to cease pursuing it.

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Thats for sure , Corley-thanks. My brother has made it possible for me to do
something-just not sure what that is. One thing is for sure-it will be done right and will-mono or multi- be an experimental platform. I'm used to building my own boats-I can't just now and that sends the cost skyrocketing.
I can't wait to get on the water.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

===================

I can't wait to get on the water.

You have all the parts from your "foiler". You've had these parts back for a couple of years. Why haven't you been "on the water", foiling all over the place?

[Doug Lord]

I've done a lot of work on foil design specifically for this boat and it and the MPX system should have great application for small high performance tri's. This is a relatively shallow draft foil and simpler to make than a curved foil-see sketch below. So far, it still looks like I won't be able to have this boat built.....
The horizontal foil, "A", in the picture acts to lift(as does the other side "B") in the lightest of air. The concept is that "A" behaves as a DSS foil up to the point that speed is fast enough for "B" to start taking most of the load with "A" (and the ama) clear of the water. The advantage of the configuration, as I see it, is exceptional low speed lift with an automatic reduction in wetted surface as speed increases.
I added two red waterlines to show, a little better, what I mean.=======
Here, again, is an explanation of the MPX foil system for which this foil is specifically designed:

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Here is a description of how the MPX foil system works and what it is. One of the experiments that will be tried on this boat after getting her sailing is using a planing ama with and without a foil. Initially, however, the ama will be connected to the cross arm with a "curved piece" just like in the SRT model and the ama will be nearly identical to the SRT ama:

1) Max Pressure-the boat will be designed to have max RM before depowering at about 1.8lb. sq.ft. of SA(up to 2.4 in gusts-see below). After that the boat will need to be depowered. The max RM of an F18 catamaran allows it to sail in 1.8lbs pressure with two guys on trapezes-then they have to depower.
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2) Heel control- the MPX tri uses a bi-foil system on the main hull. That is what allows it to fly the main hull in light air which is one of the principle advantages of the MPX system. The boat should fly the main hull in 6-7 knots wind. The main foil uses a wand altitude control system set so that the nominal altitude of the main hull reflects, approximately, a 8.5 degree angle of heel with the main hull at 1' above the water. The wand controls that angle as the boat goes faster. A funny thing happens as the boat goes faster:it was originally able to fly the main hull because of foil lift but as the boat goes faster the heeling moment reduces the weight that is required to be supported by the foils on the main hull. The main foil continues to be unloaded as the boat goes faster, reducing induced drag(drag due to lift) until the main foil is not lifting at all. In the meantime, the planing ama and/or the ama foil take more and more of the load until the boat is nearly 100% supported by the ama(planing and/or foil). An important consideration in all this is that though the main foils are relieved of their light air responsibility to lift the main hull they still perform an important function: pitch control. The only way the planing ama and/or foil can work properly is if the running angle of the planing hull and/or the angle of attack of the ama foil are controlled fairly precisely and that is exactly what the main foils do in heavier air when they are not lifting the boat. The prefered setup is a more or less "normal" ama fitted with a specially designed curved lifting foil. The curved lifting foils on larger tris can be designed to support up to around 70% of the boats weight with the reserve ama buoyancy controlling pitch. On this boat, the ama foil lifts 100% of the boat and pitch control is from the foils on the main hull. Sometimes, on the old ORMA tris, the ama would fly out of the water-that would eliminate the only pitch control the boat had- and a crash was likely. On this boat, if the curved lifting foil lifts the ama clear of the water nothing bad happens because the main hull foils are controlling pitch. A side benefit is that the ama curved lifting foil can be designed to fly the ama higher and higher as speed increases ,reducing wetted surface with the foil behaving as a surface piercing foil.
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3) Gust response- this is a side benefit of using a wand-based altitude(sailing angle) control system: at the point where the ama foil is fully loaded and the main foil is unloaded and should there be a gust that wants to heel the boat the wand causes the mainfoil to pull down automatically increasing RM for the gust duration. This kind of response can be designed to allow a temporary increase of RM of up to 30% or so.

click on image: (This is a combination of a DSS type foil(used so far on mono's with an angled surface piercing foil(a la Hydroptere and others). It provides all the RM for the boat thruout the speed range with no crew movement required except possibly with sudden gusts while the boat is stopped though the volume of the ama to take care of that.

[Doug Lord]

I've been very inspired today chasing the Mosquito 20' tri up the intercoastal,
very, very inspired. everglades challenge sailboat post 133

click on image---

[dstgean]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

I've been very inspired today chasing the Mosquito 20' tri up the intercoastal,
very, very inspired. everglades challenge sailboat post 133

click on image---

If you built one to their design, you could add foiling elements. It's not so different from Bradfields' boat. Lots of power, reasonable weight--certainly less than the Hobie Trifoiler or Windrider. Add the L foils to the ama and go. Seriously, for a small tri, ply is really light and strong. Given your penchant for all things foils, you could get a high power platform and add the foils. I can't imagine team B&B have 20K in their boat....

Dan

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by dstgean

If you built one to their design, you could add foiling elements. It's not so different from Bradfields' boat. Lots of power, reasonable weight--certainly less than the Hobie Trifoiler or Windrider. Add the L foils to the ama and go. Seriously, for a small tri, ply is really light and strong. Given your penchant for all things foils, you could get a high power platform and add the foils. I can't imagine team B&B have 20K in their boat....

Dan

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Just a few years ago I could have built my boat 100%-now I have to pay someone else to do it-makes a huge difference. I love the 20 but it is not a design suitable for my foil system.
Update #1: because of unfortunate circumstances the project to build the EagleFL is dead for the (un)forseeable future. It is a huge disappointment and discouraging turn of events.
I will ,however, resume work soon on the SRT test model and get that sailing as soon as possible.

Update #2: while the Eagle FL can't be done, which is indeed disappointing, I believe I have found a way to convert an existing hull into a trimaran(the hull serving as the basis of the SRT*) and create a daysailer-not a superboat like the potential of the Eagle or SRT. But considering all the factors it is better than doing nothing by a long shot. And it gets me sailing again in my own boat.

Update #3: new boat "Dream Flyer" started today-see Dream Flyer fl-an 18' daysailing trimaran

* 1) picture of the boat to be converted, 2-4 show hull with racks removed: