The motorsailer: Not good at anything or just a motorboat with sail?

Discussion in 'Motorsailers' started by gunship, Oct 23, 2010.

  1. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I consider a 'motor sailor' to be any sail boat that is intended to do a significant part of its voyaging with the engine running. It could have an engine of far less than 5hp per ton, continuous, to do this.

    What I would expect to see is a relatively large, efficient prop and large fuel tanks. Auxiliaries may have larger engines, but usually have smaller, less efficient props, and smaller tankage. With them, the engine is intended just to get them in and out of port, so drive efficiency can be sacrificed to cut construction cost and to increase sailing efficiency.
     
  2. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    Sharpii2, that is the best, most perfect description I've read as a definition on this site.

    I wonder if this thread will sit on the deck for 18 days before anyone posts in the motorsailor section, like the last one.....:rolleyes:

    But what about smaller boats? Kodiak, or even smaller, a chugger with a motor?
     
  3. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Having a mast that is easy to lower is grand.

    The ONLY method I know of that is easy and the effort required would be done frequently is the Luchett.

    These were use hundreds of years ago on Thames Barges that could sail under bridges, with only a man and a boy as crew.

    This is a set of pivots high enough to be above any structure , so the mast has a place to lay down.

    The deck has a long door that opens in the deck in front of the mast.

    The mast is counter weighted so when the hatch is open the balance is almost perfect.

    Undoo the forestay , lay back the mast , and then tip it up before the boat looses way .

    Welcome to 1850 , the modern way to sail with no effort!

    Bilge keels or a box keel would allow taking the ground between tides .
     
  4. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    Dang, I thought I had a great idea!
     
  5. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    My idea of a very small motor sailor is a rowboat with a small sailing rig, that can sail up wind in strong winds. Such a vessel has tremendous practical implications.

    My dad had a few friends who liked to canoe in the back woods of Michigan.

    On their usual route, they had to cross a relatively large lake. The winds on that lake were often fierce, making paddling against them nearly impossible. Their solution was an outboard, but they got damned tired of portaging it and the fuel it needed.

    My dad asked me if I could design them a small sailing rig that would be much lighter than the outboard and easy to set up.

    I was a teenager then, and did not have the know how to do the job.

    But it got me thinking.
     

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  6. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    Not a sail I'm accustom to, how'd it work out?
     
  7. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I don't know. It was never built. It is intended for a row boat. That is why its clew is so high. It can be reefed twice. First the balanced jib comes down, then the top sail is brailed down, leaving the 'mainsail' flying from beneath the boom, where it is out of the way and hopefully providing useful thrust. It is furled by relieving the boom gallows allowing the clew end of the boom to drop.

    It all works quite well on paper ;).

    Here I'll show you a drawing of a crude boat under it. The mast is stepped off to the side to make room for the rower.

    In the case of the two canoe men, I mentioned in my previous post, I would design them a boomless spritsail of about 22sf, with the mast stepped against the spreader beam for support. The mast would be about 8ft long and the foot of the sail would be about 4ft. (not shown here)
     

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  8. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

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  9. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    I've`seen the kites and parachute types, even advertising sales from car lots.

    One the persom wears a belt, like a flag bearer in a parade, steps the mast in a pocket and sticks it in the air, you lean to tack. Fun on a kayak, did that.

    Add a trolling motor and we have our motorsailor!
     
  10. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    hybrid packet

    Here is a letter I emailed to a fellow who had a most interesting idea for a passenger vessel.

    His concept was a miniture 'tramp steamer' which would have its passengers packed in like a troop ship, so they could all sail the seven seas at minimal cost.

    The concept he drew did not look up to the job. It was only 100 ft long and was expected to cruise at 10 kts.

    The hull resembled a cross between a stern dragger and a semi-planing motor yacht.

    I thought it would be far too fuel thirsty to be economical.

    I pointed this out to him in an email.

    He asked if I had any suggestions.

    Below is my reply.

    I modified his business model by adding what I call 'pay-aways' and reducing the number of people aboard to around 74. I also added sails.

    I think this concept might be of interest to followers of this thread.

    Here's the letter:


    Actually, I'm thinking of a ship.

    It would be 20 ft wide and 120 ft long. It would displace roughly 175 tons and be powered by a diesel of about 200 hp, continuous.

    It would have two identical sails of my own design which would have 1350 sf each.

    The sails would each be divided into three panels of 450 sf, and would have two boomlets separating the panels, somewhat like a Chinese lug. The difference is these sails will have no yard and will have far fewer boomlets. Reefing is done by lowering the sail until the lowest boomlet rests on top of the boom. Lazy jacks and braille lines will confine the sail cloth.

    With apparent winds of 16 kts or more, the engine could be switched off and a smaller electric motor, powered by the gen set, would rotate the propeller just enough to keep up with the ship (so the propeller doesn't create drag).

    This propulsion method has four major advantages over straight sail or straight power:

    1.) Unlike with straight power, a much higher portion of hull speed, (sqrt of WL * 1.33) in ft and kts, is possible without breaking the bank on fuel consumption. This, of course, is only when there is adequate wind and that wind is at least 50 deg. off the bow. On good days, speeds of 14 kts or better may be possible. With straight power, you'd be stuck with 7 to 10 kts.

    2.) Unlike with straight sail, this vessel can base its courses on distance, not favorable winds. This can make for far shorter voyages than would be practical with straight sail.

    3.) Unlike with straight power, the vessel will not be rendered helpless if the engine fails. there will be adequate sail area to propel the vessel, even up wind, in moderate winds.

    4.) Unlike with straight sail, the spars can be almost 30% shorter and there can be half as much sail to handle.

    With this power combination, the skipper, passengers, and crew would have the widest possible choice of routes to a destination.

    To be fair, there are at least two major disadvantages as well:

    1.) Unlike with straight power, this vessel may not be able to buck a strong headwind without help of the sails. This can be dangerous in a lee shore situation.

    2.) Unlike with straight sail, an engine or motor of some kind will always be running. Diesel now costs around $4.00 a gallon. I seriously it will stay this low for long.

    There would be 18 cabins below the deck. There would be 9 on each side, separated by an isle down the center. Each cabin would bunk 4 passengers or crew, with two pairs of upper and lower bunks each. This way, there will be about as much room as a doubled up prison cell. There will be some storage in each cabin.

    This was a typical 19th century 'steerage' arrangement on ocean going packet and passenger ships.

    I believe this is the minimal space acceptable for a two to three week passage.

    Two head and shower facilities would be provided, one for boys and one for girls.

    The captain and one deck officer will share a cabin in the stern of the ship. They would have no head or shower facilities of their own.

    The 'pay aways' would get the cabins closest to the middle of the ship, where the motion would be the most comfortable. The 'work aways' would get the rest.

    The deck house would be approximately 60 ft long and 12 ft wide. In it, all cooking eating, and entertaining would be done. Cooking and cleaning up would be a communal activity amongst the 'work aways', who would serve the 'pay aways'. The deck house roof would extend all the way to the sides of the ship, providing shade for those on deck.

    The vessel, from top view, would resemble a milk carton pushed onto its side. This is to provide the maximum cabin space.

    The bottom would be 'V' or double chine flat, with long bilge keels for roll dampening and lateral resistance.

    All told, there would be 74 passengers and crew. The 'pay aways' would pay double the fare of the 'work aways'.

    This, in no way, beats jet fare for the same trip, but I think it's close enough, considering the experience value.

    these are my thoughts for now.
     
  11. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Completely ignoring any and all regulatory requirements..........
     
  12. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "With apparent winds of 16 kts or more, the engine could be switched off and a smaller electric motor, powered by the gen set, would rotate the propeller just enough to keep up with the ship (so the propeller doesn't create drag)."

    Some transmissions will do this in neutral , some may need an auxilary lube pump to keep them happy.

    An easier system would be a CPP ,feathered , tho they are costly.

    A second solution since a diesel will be on for house power might be two different sized engines , powering one shaft.

    The Navy LST tranny has a SA #1 bell housing that can dog in either or both engines.

    200hp for cruise , 60 from the noisemaker that would do house power , hyd for trimming sails , bow thruster and perhaps helping get around on tacking.

    With a Hyd windlass the guests could even sail the anchor out as was done long ago.
     
  13. Wavewacker
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    Wavewacker Senior Member

    Well, seems to me all this means it can be a sailboat with a motor or a motor boat with a sail, regardless of size. It must only be good for what it's deigned to do. If you mate a zebra with a mule you get something that has 4 legs, you might be able to ride it but it would never ride like a horse, might be a better pack animal than a zebra, not sure. It would probably be a good large pet, treated right and loved and enjoyed for what it is. So goes the motorsailer, so why are they judged by their relatives, the motor boat or the sailboat and not taken in their own right? :)
     
  14. Yobarnacle
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    Yobarnacle Senior Member holding true course

    if you mate a zebra with a mule, you'll be FAMOUS.

    Mules are sterile, and are hybrids of a horse and a donkey. :D

    But add a giraffe in the zebra horse mix? LOL A SHOW stopper!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr2MtHXZW0M&feature=player_embedded


    http://www.factzoo.com/mammals/okapi-part-zebra-giraffe-horse-herbivore.html

    The Okapi is the kind of animal that you wouldn't believe existed if someone just described it to you; since most descriptions refer to it as part horse, part zebra, and part giraffe. However, it is a very real relative of the giraffe (though the okapi obviously has a much shorter neck), and can be found not only in zoos, but running wild in the Ituri rain-forest of The Democratic Republic of Congo. It stands 4.9 to 6.6 ft (1.5 to 2 m) tall at it's shoulders, and is 6.2 to 8.2 ft (1.9 to 2.5 m) long; with a weight of 440 to 660 lbs (200 to 300 kg).



    Maybe motorsailors should be a DISTINCT class all their own! :)
     

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  15. TeddyDiver
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    Concur!
     
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