The motorsailer: Not good at anything or just a motorboat with sail?

[FAST FRED]

100hp

This amount of power in a 40 ft motor sailor will be far too much.

I would guess a displacement of 30,000lbs , under 15 Tons.

A 75 HP ( Cont rating) engine would give all the speed your body can stand motoring into 15 ft waves (sorta rare) , and not die as rapidly from underloading when 15-30 Hp is used for cruising or sail assisted cruising.

FF

[sharpii2]

When I think of a motor sailor, I think of a sailboat with a slightly cut down rig, a tad less ballast, more fuel tankage, a bit beefier engine, and maybe a pilothouse.

Since pointing ability is not so critical, I can see going with a shallow, long keel, to avoid the hassle of deep draft, and/or center boards.

The smaller rig can be much sturdier as it can have a shorter mast.

All this makes a more versatile boat that, arguably, can do a little of everything but is not all that good at anything.

I know this is not a very popular idea, but it may be a more practical one.

Having sailed exclusively, I can appreciate moving at less than half a knot, just for the challenge of it. But I am not really trying to get anywhere on a small lake.

My next boat will not be a sailboat, nor a row boat, but a hybrid. It will have a shorter rig, for when its fun to sail (about the time rowing gets difficult) and oars for when it's not. The sail will be of unusual design, so it can remain set when I'm rowing. It will have a high enough clew, so a fishing pole can be set up for trolling, while under sail.

I haven't fished in thirty years and I miss it.

The first design question I was ever asked was by my dad.

He had some friends who took a long canoe trip every summer. Their voyage took them across a large lake which had a reputation for fierce winds, which made paddling difficult.

They usually took a a small outboard and some fuel to get past that lake.

My dad wanted to know if I could design a sail rig that was light and compact and easier to lug around than the heavy engine and three gallon fuel tank.

I didn't have the design knowledge that I do now, but I did understand the basic concepts. I knew I would need some kind of lee way prevent-er (lee board or side mounted dagger board), as the rig would almost certainly have to be used to windward, but I had no way to calculate the size of the sail needed.

Since then, the thought has stuck with me.

When it comes to a 'motor sailor', I expect a boat that can make windward progress without the engine running.

If it can't, I call it a 'sail assisted powerboat'.

[whitepointer23]

does anyone have a link to a good motor sailer design 26 to 32 ft.

[Yobarnacle]

http://www.sailing-boats-for-sale.co...at_306567.aspx Fisher 30 for sale.

http://fisher30forsale.blogspot.mx/ Another but already Sold, but lots of interior pix for info.

and an owners association with tons of info
http://www.fisherowners.co.uk/Fisher...sified_Ads.htm

[whitepointer23]

thanks yob, the fishers are nice looking boats.

[Yobarnacle]

I have an Albin 25 I lengthened to 30 feet. I recommend Albins too. But didn't meet your specifications as to length.

[whitepointer23]

yes the albins are a nice looking boat, i have seen a few pics of them. the reason i posted was to see what is out there in small to medium motor sailers. i am wondering if there are any new designs on the horizon, as a lot of people on the forum are saying the motor sailer will come back into fashion with the high fuel prices.

[Yobarnacle]

I'm sure there are new designs and new mfgs. I opted to purchase a 40 year old Albin, because the fiberglass, especially the hull, was in GREAT shape, the designer and company had excellent reputations, I liked her lines and arangement and trailerability, and the price was right.

Some of the older boats were extremely well built, like Fishers and Albins. A new builder, I'd be tempted to wait a few years, and see how the product stood up. It's a lot of money to invest, and have it delaminate on you!

[whitepointer23]

Originally Posted by Yobarnacle

I'm sure there are new designs and new mfgs. I opted to purchase a 40 year old Albin, because the fiberglass, especially the hull, was in GREAT shape, the designer and company had excellent reputations, I liked her lines and arangement and trailerability, and the price was right.

good points, i have always owned older boats because thats what my budget allows and i also prefer a lot of the older boats for the same reason as yourself. but i would still like to see if anyone is working on new designs, i am thinking something with a lifting keel, fairly flat bottom with good sailing qualitys and a 8 knot cruise under power, also a pilot house with tiller outside and wheel inside.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by whitepointer23

but i would still like to see if anyone is working on new designs

I am... though it's my own design so don't have much of fancy renderings.. more freehand sketches and messy pencil calculations..

Originally Posted by whitepointer23

i am thinking something with a lifting keel, fairly flat bottom with good sailing qualitys and a 8 knot cruise under power, also a pilot house with tiller outside and wheel inside.

Wineglass form with long keel, ketch with boomles gaff main and dipping lug mizzen. 36'loa 10'beam, 71hp diesel, cpp, 1.5t fuel.
Pilot house, tiller and wheel like you think..

[whitepointer23]

interesting teddy, are you going to post the drawings and pics of the build. i like lift keels and flatter bottoms for beaching. why do you like the ketch rig, ease of handling or the large sail area, i prefer sloop for simplicity.

[TeddyDiver]

Got to update some photos into gallery someday.. single handling in mind for most aspects, ease of reefing, low CE and no winches for me.

[masalai]

All this discourse and nothing conclusive yet?

40ft x 21.5ft SAILING CAT - - further modifications in hand to facilitate 2 x 600litre midships fuel tanks (one in each hull) and possibly additional 2 x 600Litre tanks forward aft of the anchor winch and on cruise under power 10knots for a range of 2000NMiles on midships tanks and if I go the whole hog (win lotto) double that distance under power and up to 90 square meters of sail area a pretty sterling performance on the wind... and that is more than enough when cruising in most areas in my region... (2 x 20hp diesel saildrives)

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by masalai

All this discourse and nothing conclusive yet?

40ft x 21.5ft SAILING CAT

Well.. if you are ready to sell with 50k€ tax payed in EU you got a deal

[masalai]

What defines a motor-sailer to me...
- - Must be able to sit on its bottom and remain fully functional inside, (not tilt alarmingly or fall over and fill up with water on the incoming tide).
- - Easy to clean the bum on a friendly sand-flat at low tide.
- - Can change propellers and fix underwater stuff whilst "beached", (minimal through hull fittings below W/L).
- - good storage for tools, clothes, food and galley stuff as well as a navigation area.
- - Normal mains powered galley appliances - - fridge, freezer, microwave, grill (pizza, bread, cakes), "glass-oven" (roasts, bread and cakes), skillets, frypans, toaster, electric-kettle & washing-machine... All easily and cheaply replaced.
- - Usual set of navigational gear with double most stuff & triple redundancy in 3 compases.
- - Very low fuel consumption (1 engine=2 miles/1litre = 3000 rpm = 3 litres/hr)
- - Engines will run on coconut oil.
- - Separate mains generator and capability to charge 24V house/nav. AGMs, 12V engine start, as well as operate many galley items.
- - 8 PV panels (1400W) to maintain 24V house & nav battery banks, - - ready to install an additional 5 PV panels for 2275W capacity.
- - Good fuel range (on-board at the present is 500Litres), adding another 2 x 600 litre turtle-packs

- - to add - - RO watermaker to about 65Litres/hour using mains electricity, (washing machine uses 160Litres per full load - wash and rinse).
- - To Do - - in lowering the aft berths by about 15 to 18 inches and also fitting fuel turtle-packs below the forward end of these berths.
- - Yet to add - - 12M mast and "hitch-hiker" sail plan rig (2 x genoa - one to each bow) mostly for downwind work and of light weight cloth for sub 20 knot OVER THE DECK wind-speed.
- - No sheet winches to assert the idea - - "get the sails down in strong winds" 8 deck cleats...
- - Able to potter around in the shallows and "gunkhole" with a 3 ft draft.
- - Sea-kindly - - tracks well (no broaching tendencies) and surfs nicely in 7M high following swell - - - - 19 knots - not quite sustained as folding propellers were too small/slow - 8 knot max - - will be interesting to see how well she goes now with a 10 knot + max with present 3 blade fixed propellers?

The boat is configured to be operated in remote regions (NO marina facilities, NO shore power, NO shore water, NO black-water pump-out).