Motor Sailors

Hello all

I'm a student studying 2nd year Bsc (Hons) Yacht Manufacturing and Surveying at the Southampton Institute.

At the moment i am researching for info into Motorsailor designs with full spec and propulsion details.

If any one knows of sources, i would be grateful.

Dave Lynch

 

d;

The question is, "what's a motorsailor?"

There is a book, long out of print, called Motorsailors, by Dag Pike, published by Stanford Maritime in the UK in 1976.

All the best, Tad

 

You might also look at books by Jay Benford or containing the work of William Garden or Laurent Giles.

 

Thank you for your help.

Yes i found the Dag Pike book, which contains a lot of useful info.

Also i came across the Laurent Giles one as well.

Thanks.

My project is based apon what a Motor Sailor is, as the desgins have changed over the years.

Dave Lynch

 

I'm an older woman owner of a beautifull 50' motorsailor, my dear Davy I would love to show you around the more comfortable parts of my vessel ?

 

Obsolete distinction

In my opinion, the auxiliaries of today are the motorsailers of yesteryear--hp per ton, beam, width of transom and flatness of run have increased to the point where the categories of motorsailer and auxiliary have merged. Throw in a pilot house, as is becoming more common, and there you are.

Oldsalt

 

Thank you older woman motorsailor owner. unfortunately at the moment my studies come first.

I may get back to you for a sail at some stage.

 

Motor/Sailers

You might have a look at my discussion of the subject with reference to the multhull adaptation:

http://www.runningtideyachts.com/motorsailing/

 

I own a 37' Cooper Seabird motorsailer which turns out to be more motor than sailor. Full keel, 4' draft, and it can barely tack. Do you know where I could get advice on hull modifications I could try (e.g. extending the forward part of the keel to 6', rudder extensions, etc.} Maybe I should hire you to design them for me...Doug

 

Not that it matters...

Hello...

My wife still likes this one of mine...

See http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/2005/sort/1/cat/500/page/2 ...

I really would like to build the pooch...

I suppose some would call it more of a stretched (vertically) pilot house - but I still load it up in Photoshop now and again...

That older women bit should just scare you off - make you drink more coffee - and get to the books - yikes...

Check out some of the British boats and/or the Banjer 37 - http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/trading.htm - DEFINATELY the Nauticats - http://www.nauticat.com/ - William Hands stuff http://www.williamhand.com/ - and just stay off older women offering cruises on their same motorsailers..

This also is a nice bit - Scott Sprague build - see http://idisk.mac.com/agunther/Public/pilot_house/prj.html ...

Take care...

SH.

 

Design Contest Submission

BOAT International Design Competition,
Sail & Power catagories
("the best boat to undertake a world cruise")

Cover Ltr
Well here's my submission, a Motor/Sailer.

I was a little disappointed that you didn't have a separate category for this combination of sail & power, rather than just lumping it in with the sail category....but that seems the way the motorsailer has been treated (neglected) for so long. I tried to get an article on motorsailers into the current very popular American magazine, "Passagemaker",......no way, the boat has sails on it!...... As though the only true passagemakers were trawlers.

I asked my friends at the Annapolis Boat Shows (were I had participated for years) about bringing in a display model of my gamefishing cat to the PowerBoat Show.....no way, it has sails on it!

I ran into the same situation when I tried to get my motorsailing/gamefishing catamaran design published.....not in the gamefishing mags as this boat has sails on it.....and not in the sailing mags as this boat has a fishing chair and big engines in it.

So I've not been able to get this motorsailing design published.....only a 30-year-old article on the sail-plan idea itself. Hopefully I will be considered as unpublished in your definition, as I have not had this design published in any printed publication I've had to resort to taking some computer courses, and finally getting a website up to promote this idea. I feel like I'm in the same 'uphill' battle with the marketplace that I was for 18 years in the sailboat business pushing 'the multihull concept'. Several times I've put this idea into hibernation, particularly the 'Gamefishing Under Sail' idea. My comment at the time was something like, "I just spent 18 years in the sailboat business trying to convince sailors of the virtues of multihulls, and now I'm going to try and sell a fishing guy a boat with sails on it. I've got to be crazy!"

So now you are the happy recipient of this idea. I hope you take a little time to give this concept some serious consideration as a great vessel concept 'to cruise the world'. In the essay I submitted I had to spend quite a few of my allotted words to talk about the motorsailer concept in general, rather than my design in particular. It wasn't as though I could just say trawler and all would be assumed as understood. The word motorsailer (or motorsailor or.......) just doesn't translate that easily.

You encouraged innovative ideas. I think I've presented a few, and particularly my sail plan. I've gone so far as to suggest this rig might even be applicable to a RACE boat. I chose not to expound on the performance potentials of this unique rig, but rather just point out those particular features so applicable to the cruising situation. And those would exist regardless of its potential windward capabilities with tight, straight forestays. I would encourage you to visit my website, <http://www.runningtideyachts.com/> for more details on the sailing rig as well as some of my posted discussions on the BoatDesign.net <http://www.boatdesign.net/> forums at <http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=623> (aftmast rigs), and <http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=457> (sail aerodynamics). Olaf Harken has even thrown a couple of hints at me to realize the difficulties involved in marketing a 'new idea', as he recalls his innovative efforts with his radical 'bi-pod masted' "Procyon" vessel*. And Garry Hoyt as well. But I guess I'm not ready to give up this idea yet. I think it will surprise a lot of people.

While I have your attention let me bring up another of my observations about cruising sailboats I made long ago. I always felt that the raised saloon/deckhouse arrangement was a particularly good one.... up where you can see the world around you rather than buried down below. Look at the multitude of today's monohull designs that are incorporating this raised saloon concept, maybe due to the popularity of the catamaran configuration.….and/or some number of the early motorsailers that incorporated this feature. My twin keel monohull incorporated a mini version of this feature, and was introduced back in the early days when there were VERY few cruising-specific designs, and the Out-Island series was just coming on (something like 35 years ago).

If I were choosing a monohull vessel as a world cruiser, I would give serious consideration to a vessel such as my twin-keeled monohull perhaps extended to 60-65 feet, with an expanded upper saloon/cockpit, and only two big staterooms at either end. With a good size engine, my 'single-masted ketch' sailplan, or a Wylie style free-standing ketch rig, and shallow draft/directional stability of the twin keels. It would make an excellent motorsailer.

I have just had a display model of my 65' catamaran built over in Thailand, and I am going there in the next several weeks to pick it up. Should I win some portion of your design contest, I could bring it to the Monaco show. I would love to make contact with someone to put the model on display at this years' Paris, German, Holland shows.....can't afford, nor justify a stand alone display. I think Europe is a much more receptive market to 'outside-the-box thinking' of this design, particularly with their higher fuel prices and the French tax scheme for charter vessels.

*Procyon
<http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/2094/sort/1/cat/500/page/1>
.
__________________________________________________

Contest Essay

I sincerely believe that a well conceived Motor/Sailer is the most practical, capable, comfortable, economical vessel for serious ocean passagemaking......and retaining the ability to explore the most remote coastal areas.

Even Beebe's book,"Voyaging Under Power", the bible of the power-only crowd, his vessel, "Passagemaker", was a motorsailer, albeit smaller rigged than he really wanted. Many of the examples he offers as prime passagemakers are instead prime coastal cruisers, 'semi-displacement' hulls not optimized for long passages, but rather coastal cruising, where rapid transit is a primary requirement, while fuel use and surviving ultimate conditions are secondary considerations. 'Trawlers' today are gravitating toward planning hull configurations, and twin engines, as buyers become reluctant to accept slow 7-9 knot vessels. And forget wide appeal of primarily sail-powered vessels, particularly with our aging population.

We don't hear much of motorsailers these days....not a popular subject. The old traditional, stoutly-built vessels, with a hefty engine(s), were necessarily compromised in both their sailing and powering statistics. Let's modernize the motorsailer. The multihull planform holds great promise to improve this breed. The long slender hulls of the catamaran vessel have proven real efficient to push under both power & sail.....not only efficient, but not limited to the traditional slow displacement/length hull-speeds. Just what the motorsailer needs....far less compromising increases in both sail and power performance, while maintaining economy of operation that truly allows long-range capability.

Let's explore a 40' example. Take the single 120-140 hp diesel used to push the conventional 40' single-hulled trawler or motorsailer to a maximum 8.3 knots hull speed and divide it into two smaller 60 hp diesels driving two long slender catamaran hulls. Voila!, maximum to 15 knots under power with the reliability of twin engines and the stability of a twin-hulled vessel. Add a modest sailing rig to these easily driven hulls, and you now have a passagemaker capable of cruising 12 knots under sail/ power compared with those older 7-knot boats. With 12 knots of speed at your command, you can really take advantage of 'weather windows' to; 1) make your passage as smooth as possible, 2) make some lengthy passages you might never have considered in a slower boat. This multihulled vessel will likely be slowed less by an obstructive seaway, and will accordingly make a passage at almost twice the average speed of the single-hulled vessel...twice the speed for the same total HP. There is an economy of operation here that cuts fuel requirements and bills, and greatly extends their range. In light airs, running one engine often is all that is needed to bring the apparent wind forward to make the sails work harder, and the combination provides much better results than either motoring or sailing alone…… .sailing synergy/harmony, the motor taking over in the lulls and the rig taking over in the puffs.

The sea-kindliness of multihull craft is being rediscovered every day. Continual experiences with whale watching boats, fast ferries, pleasure, commercial, and military applications are all proving the validity of the multihull form. What many people forget about a good ride in a heavy sea is that it is very much a function of weight in addition to hull shape. More weight, more robust, more form resistance it offers to moving thru the ocean, the more the sea acts to resist the vessel's progress, and thus the more uncomfortable ride, and we must slow down. A big headsea is a particular challenge. Heavy boats carry their momentum into each trough and crest in a battle with the sea, while lighter weight vessels with slender hulls slice through with less battering. Per a sign at the Naval academy, "you can out-think the ocean, but you can't out-slug the ocean." Modern materials allow for lighter boats, and we must properly distribute the vessel's weight throughout long slender hulls. Following seas tend to pick up broad sterns and slew a vessel off to either side....broach. The catamaran hull does not require these broad stern shapes.

Storm survivability should be considered at the design stage for any vessel making offshore passages. Loss of power (clogged filters, etc) often occurs at the most inopportune time (during a storm), and this can put the solely powered vessel at peril in short order. A vessel with a modest sailing rig could save your life, and the vessel's. Add a proper sea anchor installation, and I would challenge a hurricane. The catamaran planform rated 'best in survivability' in huge breaking wave tests* carried out by Lock Crowther at the prestigious Univ of Southampton.

Most innovative item on my vessel, the mast-aft sailing rig, also referred to as a 'single-masted ketch'....a marriage between a cutter and a ketch without the mainsail. I have LOTS of data to support my contentions as to the aerodynamic superiority of this configuration.... But lets leave that theory out of the equation for our motorsailing application. The ketch rig is a good small-crew size rig, particularly where all three sails are roller furling!....even a novice could learn to operate this rig.....and she balances under a variety of sail deployments. Lower force centers add safety. Boats with moderate rig proportions tend to make faster overall passages because they are sailed at a higher level of efficiency than if they carry a lofty hi-performance rig. No big head-bashing booms, and just wing/wing the headsails downwind. The sail rig contributes damping action to the rolling in a beam/quarter sea (no servo-fins needed), contributes to an unlimited range, and ultimately it will get you home if the engines fail. Ahhhh motorsailing!

Optional nacelle-mounted centerboard precludes any extra hull penetrations, and permits maintenance without hauling-out. 'Pointed' deckhouse shape conforms to apparent winds, significantly reducing drag. Flying bridge & crows nest. Dedicated engine rooms, isolated from living spaces. Copper-nickel hull material below waterline is impact resistant and naturally antifouling for years.

Accomodations!! How might it appear as a real estate ad?, "Waterfront cottage, 4/5 bedrooms, three baths, large kitchen & dining area, big deck, wonderful views." Hard to beat a catamaran's spaciousness and privacy....witness their current popularity in the market. Seamanlike layout... no vast open spaces.

My 65' Motor/Sailing catamaran is the embodiment of a Phil Rhodes' motorsailer design that has haunted me all these years. Only, this vessel is so much superior. Twin 100hp diesels will cruise her at 12/14knts. Under sail she could make 16/18kts. Range, unlimited. Fuel consumption, extremely low. She could skim over depths as little as 3.5'. Explore those rivers, mangroves, coves, lagoons. Beach the bows. Dive or fish the flats and the reefs from the Bahamas to the Pacific atolls. THIS IS AN EXPEDITION PASSAGEMAKER!! 20-25meters, no crew required.


* reference source: (Lock Crowther Designs Catalogue 1980)

"This work has indicated that the well designed catamaran is remarkably safe in breaking waves up to considerable height, even when beam on, we were unable to capsize a power catamaran yacht in the largest wave which could be generated. This corresponded to a 52' wave for a catamaran of 40' beam. Scaling this down to a typical 24' beam cruising cat means she should be O.K. in a 31' breaking beam sea. An equivalent size mono-hull power boat was easily capsized by a 25' breaking sea, and in tests with conventional yachts after the Fastnet disaster, it was found that a 40' mono-hull yacht could be capsized in a 12' breaking sea."

 

The bigest disadvantage with all cats is they are happily stable after capsize.

Not a problem with fully crewed race boats that have attentive crews with vast experience , but most cruisers have self steering or autopilot , and hopefully a person on watch.

No question a cat motorsailor would be great as she probably would not be rigged for ghosting or much light weather action, so less prone to flipping.

Most folks just turn the starter key when boat speed drops much below 4k , esp with cats as the high wetted surface compared to a similar lead sled is a real handicap ghosting.

Hatches in the bottom of the hull to allow access capsized doesn't do much for the boat , but might allow living till rescued.

Might be easier to have the sail carry off the spars ,or just depart in heavy weather .

Tyhe "old way" was a ski release binding holding the main sheet , not too hard.(Worked!)

Speed & comfort is where its at , but cats also have problems finding a travel lift wide enough for service. I had a try that was 24 wide and could only go in commercial yards with an expensive marine railway , and $$$ yard labor.

Beaching worked well but not all the world has great tides to work with.

But the motion in the ocean was grand , so long distance cruising wasnt at all tiring.

FAST FRED

 

Here's mine

Twenty seven feet, 10 Hp. Yamaha, more a sailer that motor boat but it works fine as both. About 4000 lbs, I can steer from inside with a little rope on a cam cleat working against a piece of bungie cord. I don't sail from inside but motoring is fine-Todd Miller

http://www.olympus.net/personal/viviannk/ follow the link to the launching

 

Atlantis...

Hello...

These guys started up across the road when I was at Westbay Son Ship...

See http://www.atlantisyachts.com/ ...

Great builds and boats - I thought at the time - good crews...

 

strange sail rig

Excuse me for english sailing terms. I dont know all.

I do not understand very well what balance the tension of the forestay. All I have seen is a kind of Y running backstay, with a very narrow angle, which should give very high compression on the mast.

Also, the mizzen stay seems to induce a very high bending effort on the mast. With nothing to compensate it, except the moment created by the forestay and running backstay. Wich will add further compression on the mast.

Next thing, I do not see what prevent rotation of the "miszzen stay" around the mast.

Regards.