Motor Sailers?

[Vega]

The joystick is connected to a good autopilot. If the thing breaks, you just have to go outside and take the wheel. Besides, I prefer a mechanical steering system, another good reason not to have a second wheel inside, because that way the all system would have to be hydraulic.

[FAST FRED]

I prefer a mechanical steering system, another good reason not to have a second wheel inside, because that way the all system would have to be hydraulic.

Actually the old pull pull cables with chain around the wheel sproket can easily be set up for 2 steering stations , with an autopilot too.

The push pull cables are also avilable for 2 helm positions +AP but are more complex.

Hydraulic is cheap to install, plastic push on tubing a mfg delight , but not as reliable or as usefull as pull pull.

The really usefull part of cable steering is the wheel comes back to the SAME position every time the rudder is centered.

This allows dumb autopilots or mechanical self steering .
And "feel" for how hard the rudder is working , unavilable with all hyd systems.

FAST FRED

[Vega]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

The push pull cables are also available for 2 helm positions +AP but are more complex.
Hydraulic is cheap to install, plastic push on tubing a mfg delight , but not as reliable or as usefull as pull pull.


FAST FRED

"Feeling" and pleasure at the wheel, (not to mention reliability) is the reason I prefer mechanical steering systems.

I have never tried (or have seen) a 2 helm positions with a mechanical steering system, but I guess that it will be less precise than a single wheel system.

I also don't know any production boat that has one installed. Can you give me an example of one? I would like to take a look at that system, and try it.

[Greenseas2]

On tugs we use muliple steering stations that have hydraulic steering systems and use Joy sticks. The nice part of the design is that you can parallel the stations. One position is used for normal navigation, another is stern facing to pull in the catenary and barge with the winch controls colocated at that station. The third is on the main deck forward. Combine this with two sets of flanking rudder controls, thruster controls and two sets of throttles and maneuvering can get intereting at times. Same on small passenger frieghters that we've run.

[SeaSpark]

The choice for a hydraulic system gives you flexibility on the position of steering systems. Reliable integration of an autopilot is easier with hydraulics.

I like the combination of a gimballed steering chair with joystick control on arm rest.

Since we are talking about a motor sailer here steering "feel" could be considered less important.

When things go wrong an emergency tiller could provide backup steering on a boat this size. You can also use the tiller when in a sporty mood and want some feel on the helm.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by SeaSpark

The choice for a hydraulic system gives you flexibility on the position of steering systems. Reliable integration of an autopilot is easier with hydraulics.

Since we are talking about a motor sailer here steering "feel" could be considered less important.
.

If you chose to have 2 wheels I agree about the integration (the joystick could be linked to the autopilot - Raymarine has a dedicated system). I agree also that the "feeling is not very important in an old style Motor-sailor (heavy ones with a limited sailing capacity). But, if we are talking about the new breed of motorsailors (see posts 82 and 83 of this thread), feeling is as important as in a traditional sailing boat. Some of those boats are very good sailing boats and capable of giving a lot of sailing pleasure (and also capable of motoring through a gale).

That’s the ones I am interested in. So, for me the steering feeling is a big part of the sailing pleasure (I have tried some sailing boats with hydraulic steering and I have hated the lack of "feeling") that’s why I prefer mechanical steering.

[SeaSpark]

Here a picture of my 50ft fast cruiser design.

A modern motor sailer?

It has a gimballed steering chair with joystick control on arm rest under the pilothouse.

It also features a permanent tiller in the cockpit. I want the rudder to be retractable and am thinking about making it rotatable (only a few degrees) in the vertical plane to adjust balance. This would enable me to "tune" the balance of the rudder for hand steering or autopilot/joystick steering. Know this sounds as a complex construction.... it is. That is why i have not made op my mind yet.

This design is still under development.

[Greenseas2]

How about a couple of horizontal trim tabs that can be hydraulically adjusted on the rudder for balance? That's one good looking motorsailer.

[SeaSpark]

I want to balance the rudder to adjust pressure on tiller/hydraulics.

[Vega]

I like the general idea.
I am developing a very similar kind of boat.
About the trim on the rudder, I know very little about the subject, but the trims I have seen are in the keel.

Take a look at the trim on this one:

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

...Actually the old pull pull cables with chain around the wheel sproket can easily be set up for 2 steering stations , with an autopilot too.... FAST FRED

Joining Vega, I would like to know more about this system. Any clue?

SeaSpark,
Could you post more info on your design?
To balance the rudder you may locate a balancing area forward of the rudder axis. That's simple and efficient.
The purpose of a flap added to the back edge of the rudder is to increase its lift, this making moments even bigger on the system.
Here you'l find an extreme example of a flapped and balanced rudder:
http://www.becker-marine-systems.com...ecker_flap.pdf
Also interesting their Schilling rudder:
http://www.becker-marine-systems.com/index.html

[SeaSpark]

Vega, I am a big fan of the Dick Zaal design you are referring to.

The retractable rudder will have to be in a tube, or hung behind the transom.
The tube will have to be very large in diameter, big disadvantage. Transom hung rudders are vulnerable.

About the balancing, by moving or rotating the rudder fore and aft you increase and decrease the balancing area forward of the rudder axis. Since the rudder is retractable it would not be very had to accomodate for such a system. You only have to move the rudder a little to have a big effect on balance.

A free standing rotating wing mast is part of the design.

I will make a new thread in propulsion to explain what i have in mind for it.

(edit) The new thread in propulsion: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...4864#post84864

[FAST FRED]

The Edison catalog has all the parts to install the cable steering as required.

www.edsonmarine.com/ -

FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

SeaSpark,
Take a look at James Wharram's sail design for his catamarans. The sail wraps around the mast providing almost perfect aerodynamic flow to the sails. It's an inexpensive method to go high tec with sails.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

The Edison catalog has all the parts to install the cable steering as required.

www.edsonmarine.com/ -

FAST FRED

The dual systems that I find there are this:

That is not what we are talking about.

Can you point me in the right direction?