Motor Sailers?

[Guillermo]

Vega:
Puffin & Little Zaca Yachts do not commercialize those two as motorsailers, but they do it for these two:
http://www.de-gier.nl/createsite/pro...s_prod_id=3226
http://www.de-gier.nl/createsite/pro...s_prod_id=3228
Cheers

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Greenseas2

...Another slightly small motorsailer to look at is the Swin 22 ...

Thanks for the tip on the Swin 22, Greenseas2. I didn't knew it.

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Greenseas2

Before deciding on a motorsailer, read Voyaging Under Power by Bob Bebbe and pay especiall close attention to the 4 formulas that determine boat speed and range..

Robert Beebe's excellent book is rather on passagemaking motor boats than on motorsailers. Even his boat 'Passagemaker' should rather be considered as a motor boat with auxiliary sails than a motorsailer.
Designing of a motorsailer has to take also into account the SA/D and the HP/D ratios (among many other things), on top of the ones you mention in your further post which are of general use for motor boats too.

[FAST FRED]

"Robert Beebe's excellent book is rather on passagemaking motor boats than on motorsailers. Even his boat 'Passagemaker' should rather be considered as a motor boat with auxiliary sails than a motorsailer."

No question about Bebee's boat being a mostly motorboat , but the ability to rig sails (for get home) would be a huge advantage , even if the boat can't beat into a F-8 breeze.

The usual paravane / flopper stopper needed for stability on a motor boat needs a mast of some sort at about 28% of the lwl from aft.

That would mean a schooner arangement where the aft mast is the strongest. best rigged.

A foward mast in a tabernakle could complete a handy "sail when its advantageous" rig , that should work OK as a get home .

If a hull is sweat the amount of sail required for basic propulsion is mighty small. Motor Boxes are the bummer.

FAST FRED

[brian eiland]

In a little piece of literature I handed out at the Miami show last year, not this, I had written;
"Even in Beebe’s book,'Voyaging Under Power', the bible of the power-only crowd, his vessel, 'Passagemaker', was a motorsailer, albeit smaller rigged than he really wanted. Many of the examples he offers as prime passagemakers are instead prime coastal cruisers, ‘semi-displacement’ hulls not optimized for long passages, but rather coastal cruising, where rapid transit is a primary requirement, while fuel use and surviving ultimate conditions are secondary considerations. ‘Trawlers’ today are gravitating toward these semi-planning hull configurations, and twin engines, as buyers become reluctant to accept slow 7-9 knot vessels. We don’t hear much of motorsailers these days....not a popular subject. The old traditional, stoutly-built vessels, with a hefty engine(s), were necessarily compromised in both their sailing and powering statistics....."

On another note, back a few postings earlier...

Originally Posted by Vega

These are semi-custom boats and if you want a real wheel, they will probably give you one, but nowadays, in relatively small boats, a joystick for the interior steering makes a lot of sense, at least for me and I guess also for the Puffin owners and to Olivier F. van Meer, the Puffin's Architect.

Originally Posted by Guillermo

OK, Paulo, I admit it! If they have a interior steering and navigating position, then they are proper pilothouse motorsailers to me! I'll add them to the list.
Cheers.

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Vega:
Puffin & Little Zaca Yachts do not commercialize those two as motorsailers

I agree, they are very nice looking vessels, and I think surely could be called motorsailers to a degree. Glad you included them Guillermo

[Mayfly]

Which than will be worth the money plan for a motorsailer? Economically to build and comfortable and compact, able to adpat to sea and river enviroment still have room for 2 friends.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

We don’t hear much of motorsailers these days....not a popular subject. The old traditional, stoutly-built vessels, with a hefty engine(s), were necessarily compromised in both their sailing and powering statistics....."

On another note, back a few postings earlier...
I agree, they are very nice looking vessels, and I think surely could be called motorsailers to a degree. Glad you included them Guillermo

I guess it all has to do with what the market calls today a motor-sailor and that is not necessarily the same thing that I or Guillermo or you would call a motor sailor. I mean it is the market (and the users) that decide what type of boat they would call a motorsailor.

I am kind of boat magazines addict (I read regularly boat mags from 5 or 6 different countries). I have found that there is a consistent change in what the boat testers and specialized magazines call Motorsailors.

What they call now motorsailors are what 20 years ago they would call passagemakers. Normally they call motorsailor to any sturdy oceangoing raised saloon with a motor big enough to stand against a gale, even if those boats are also good sailing boats and have not an interior wheel.

Old style motorsailors are almost dead, I mean, they almost don't sell, but there is now a surge of interest in what they call now "motorsailors", boats like the Nordships, the new Nauticats or the Reginas.

Funny thing is that those builders don’t call their boats motorsailors (almost like the word has bad connotations) it is the specialized press that call them motorsailors.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Vega

What they call now motorsailors are what 20 years ago they would call passagemakers. Normally they call motorsailor to any sturdy oceangoing raised saloon with a motor big enough to stand against a gale, even if those boats are also good sailing boats and have not an interior wheel.

Funny thing is that those builders don’t call their boats motorsailors (almost like the word has bad connotations) it is the specialized press that call them motorsailors.

I think you captured the essence of it Vega, the old term just isn't acceptable to the market....shame, as it distinguishes those trawler style passagemakers from the motor/sail ones.

[Guillermo]

MOTORSAILERS' DEFINITIONS (MONOHULLS)


Here you have my actual thoughts and definitions on Motorsailers.


General definition:
"Motorsailers should be, in my opinion, hybrids among sailing boats and motor boats, having amplier volumes than those of a pure sailing boat, as well as a nice pilothouse conceived to steer and navigate (so not being being only a deck or raised saloon) to make them more livable in all kind of weathers; able to carry a generous cargo; have manegeable sails with a short crew (without the needing of very expensive hardware), but able to easily pull the boat as to develope hull speed under sail alone in a moderate breeze (force 4); have a propeller-engine combination allowing for a fuel efficient motoring and having power enough to at least reach hull speed under engine alone, as well as extra muscle to beat dead to winward in a force 10 storm in protected waters".


We have two big classes, depending on the intended use:


Ocean going (globetrotters) motorsailers:
They use to have an SA/D ratio from 13 to 15+ and a HP/(D/1000) ratio around 2 (from now on we'll call this ratio just HP/D). D/Lwl ratio may go from 250 for lighter ones as in designs bred in sailing boats, up to 400+ for old-style heavy-weigths, bred in fishing boats. Fuel tankage should be enough, at least, for around 900-1000 miles under engine alone at 1.1 Froude's. Low pilothouse profile, as to allow for structure and windows being capable of resist capsizing and green sea slamming. Relatively high wetted surface for better seamanship. CE Design Category: A


Coastal motorsailers:
These tend to be lighter nowadays and with more powerful engines, although traditional heavy-weights are also here in their own. Fuel tankage is shorter, tipically allowing for 300-400 miles passages. CE Design Category: B or A
Two actual trends:
Northern: Boats designed to usually sail in colder climates and stronger weather. D/Lwl ratio going from 250 to 350 (oldies use to be in the 400+ region), SA/D from 13 to 16 and,and HP/D ratio from 2 to 3 (I consider these boats as being all around short-seas motorsailers, if design category is A).
Southern: Boats rather designed with good-weather islands hopping in mind. D/Lwl in the 200-250 range, very variable SA/D ratio, going from 12-13 up to the 17-18 range, and having an HP/D ratio definitively much higher than 3, some of them going as high as 7 (!) with totally flat sections at the sterns. Fuel hungry boats. Raised deck-saloons rather than pilothouses, in some cases integrated with the cockpit (Be careful: Extreme designs may not even comply with CE design category B!)

[Greenseas2]

We've started investigating shipping costs and methods for motorsailers currently in the UK to be shipped to the US. It appears that all of the worthwhile and seaworthy motorsailers that can be bought for reasonable prices are in the Europe. Anyone who wants to pitch in with this effort is welcome.

[DanishBagger]

I tend to bump into people constantly that go "isn't it a motor sailer!? But it has a motor, doesn't it?".

LOL, sorry, but that's the level people in general are at.

[Greenseas2]

I agree with you 100% on the specifications. Motorsailers are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, hybrids. I really don't believe that most motorsailers built in the US are either deep sea or coastwise. Most of the ones like Cape Dory, Nimble and others of the type, would be in deep trouble in even modest storm conditions mainly due to large expanses of glass with no window storm shields available. Also there are no bridge deck and if the cocpit flooded, the entire boat would flood. In order to be a good motorsailer with good storm surviavl design, there has to be a lot of passagemaker charteristics included such as high bridge deck and window storm panels.

[Ari]

http://www.kastenmarine.com/kapal_layar_mesin.htm

Have a looks at this link..nice motor sailor

[Guillermo]

Nice Phinisi, Ari. Those boats are probably the biggest wooden boats actively build in the world.

[Greenseas2]

You hit on an interesting subject by suggesting joy stick steering in motorsailers. I driven many commercial vesels iwth joy stick steering and it's great; however, if you lose hydraulics, you lose steering. It happened to me coming across the Gulf of Mexico with a tow boat 5 decks high. The solutioon was to make a Spanish windlass to straighten and hold the rudders while keeping coutrse by using the engines. It might cause some pucker factor in a single engine boat. On my S2, I have a paddle from a rowing shell tied to the mast in the even that I lose the rudder. It can be tied to the aft verticle rail support and used to steer enough to get you home. I still like the joy stick idea, it's better than a wheel on many counts.