Motor Sailers?

[cyclops]

Fast Fred. Is a E G T meter as good at telling you the load on a engine as a vacuum guage? GM still specifies full rated output of their industrial engines @ 1" of vacuum @ specified rpm.

[FAST FRED]

A vacume gage doesn't WORK on a diesel engine.
If there is a 1" spec for full throttle full load , thats just to be sure there are NO restrictions in the intake.

The only EZ way to monitor how hard its running is with the EGT gage.

Ship diesels can actually measure the firing pressure in each cylinder and set the injectors to balance , but each piston on these is as large as a small bus.

For a cruiser with the usual 35 to 500hp engine , EGT is it.

FAST FRED

[Guillermo]

PROPOSED (ALL BOATS) NEW LABELING SYSTEM:

M 14/14

First figure relates to the SA/D ratio (to the closest integer), so to the sailing power, and
Second figure relates to the 6*HP/D ratio (to the closest integer), so to the motoring power.

Letter is related to the D/L ratio, as follows:
VL = Very low D/L ratio, under 100
L= Low D/L, from 100 to 200
M = Medium D/L, from 200 to 300
H = High D/L, from 300 to 400
VH = Very Heavy D/L, 400+

- If ratio in label is greater than one, the boat is sailing oriented. If less than one, motoring oriented.

- If first figure is 14+ the boat has plenty of power under sails alone. Lower than 10 seems too low sails power to me for a motorsailer: The boat should rather be considered a "sail assisted motor boat". Higher than 16 the boat should probably be better classificated as a pure sailing boat, with more or less engine power.

- Second figure being over 18 usually means quite an excess of engine power, in my opinion. For an efficient motorsailer, it should be around 14, let's say from 12 to 16.

- What are called 50/50 motorsailers by the "century" rule, become 14/14 (more or less) under this labeling system.

For samples with various motorsailers, please visit: http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/motorsailers.htm

The benefit of this labeling system, against the "century" formula is that saying that a boat is a 50/50 motorsailer says nothing about the real sail and engine power of the boat, nor if she's light or heavy, while this new label I propose really does.

Now we can even add some letters at the end, to better explain the intended design (Or marketing!) concept, as MS for Motorsailers, PH for Pilot House, RS for raised saloon, OC for ocean cruiser, etc, etc (and even a letter for the number of hulls, if necessary). So, if we read something like M16/12 RS-OC, we can understand the boat is a "medium weight, sail oriented, raised saloon ocean cruiser" most probably with a good performance under sail and with an engine allowing for economic motoring passages but having yet enough power reserve to beat to winward in a gale.

Guillermo.

[Greenseas2]

Before deciding on a motorsailer, read Voyaging Under Power by Bob Bebbe and pay especiall close attention to the 4 formulas that determine boat speed and range. Some very small changes in your S/L speed can double your range. Also just saw a recommeded 41 foot design that was set up nice, but motorsailers such as Colvic Watson, Swin, Hardy and Albin have already squeased all of the stuff on the 41 foot down to 26 ft., 25 ft., 23 ft and 22 ft in very liveable, affordable and maintainable configurations. Being American, I hate to say that the designers in the US go overboard in creating boats with too much space that can't be used for anything else except too much space.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Greenseas2

pay especiall close attention to the 4 formulas that determine boat speed and range. Some very small changes in your S/L speed can double your range. .

Can you be a bit more specific and outline those 4 formulas? I really don't know what you are talking about...but it sounds interesting.

[Guillermo]

My pages at: http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/motorsailers.htm
have now been changed to: http://www.xente.mundo-r.com/motorsailers/

[Vega]

Guillermo, I was checking your new site and I have seen that you have not there the "Puffin"...shame on you. I am kidding it is a nice collection, but the Puffin deserves a place there, not to mention "The little Zaca". This one is really one of my favorites, even if it is not properly a typical Motorsailor.

Take a look at the interior design and set up of both boats. They are very good.

http://www.de-gier.nl/

[Guillermo]

Thanks, Paulo. I'll add Puffin tonight to the list. Nice boat, quite similar to the Noordkapper.
All the best.

[Guillermo]

Paulo,
I've been reviewing calmly the Puffins, and I think that, although beatiful (I love the style) and with enough engine power, they are not pilothouse motorsailers, as they are not conceived with an inside steering position in mind (have a close look: even the deckhouse's front windows are pretty small). They are rather sailing boats with deck saloons, or the like. So I will not post them at the M&M pages, for the time being.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Paulo,
I've been reviewing calmly the Puffins, and I think that, although beatiful (I love the style) and with enough engine power, they are not pilothouse motorsailers, as they are not conceived with an inside steering position in mind .

These are semi-custom boats and if you want a real wheel, they will probably give you one, but nowadays, in relatively small boats, a joystick for the interior steering makes a lot of sense, at least for me and I guess also for the Puffin owners and to Olivier F. van Meer, the Puffin's Architect.

[Guillermo]

OK, Paulo, I admit it! If they have a interior steering and navigating position, then they are proper pilothouse motorsailers to me! I'll add them to the list.
Cheers.

[Greenseas2]

In response to a prior question on the most important formulas for designing or buying a motorsailer, here they are"
1. D/L Displacement /Length ratio
2. S/L Speed to length ratio
3. Above water area/Below water area
4. Prismatic coefficient.
For getting the most range from any motorsailer, use the S/L formula. This is where small power adjustment mean large gains in range.
The formulas are easily looked up and should greatly enhance your knowledge when building or buying a long range motorsailer.
Other evaluations should also be made of fuel and water capacities. There's nothing more pathetic than a boat advertisement that says"sleeps 4", "water 10 gallons", or "fuel 15 gallons"......dock queens.

[Vega]

Guillermo, you are a nice guy...you deserve another. This one even has a real interior wheel
http://www.holtermanyachting.nl/yach...sher/index.php

[Greenseas2]

Sean,
I agree with you on smaller. I currently have an S2 center cockpit that we are selling. I've decided that the Colvic Watson 23.5 foot motorsailer is probably the next boat. There's only one ad that shows both people and boat to get a proper perspective. The ad is in Topsail.co.UK and is interest because it shows just how small, yet big, the CW 23.5 is. Scaling back from 47' to 23.5 feet insures continued sailing in that I'm 68. Also a licensed master with over 3,000 certified days logged.
Another slightly small motorsailer to look at is the Swin 22 on Yachtworld.com. It has everything needed for long distance cruising.

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Vega

Guillermo, you are a nice guy...

Sometimes...
Thanks for the link to the Holterman 46 page. I knew this boat but I thought it was a Fisher 46 with another name. Aren't they almost exactly the same....?