Motor Sailers?

[brian eiland]

I’ve always had great respect for this gentleman Ted Hood, so it was with great interest that I read of his latest project, the Expedition 55, in the Oct issue of Cruising World magazine.

What is most interesting is the apparent reluctance to use the term ‘motorsailer’. Instead the popular notion tends to be to call them expedition yachts….long range yachts “as capable under power as under sail”. I too could be accused of often using this ‘expedition’ term, but I’m still not afraid of the very descriptive word motorsailer. At any rate it is a pleasure to see these ocean capable cruising style vessels coming back to the forefront of sailing yacht design, in lieu of the ‘racer/cruisers.

I won’t get into all of the details of the article in Cruising World mag, but I will hi-lite a couple of the more interesting aspects. To facilitate a shallower draft he makes use of an older design know as the Scheel keel. And to better its windward performance he adds a centerboard to that keel. It will work great, but I wouldn’t want to maintain it. Imagine the stuff that will find its way into this slot at the bottom of the keel, and then how high you might have to raise the boat to get at the exposed board. I think I would opt for just the plain Scheel keel.

From a man who made his name in ‘sails’ (Hood Sailmakers was once the biggest loft in the world), it was pleasure to here him quoted, “he’s always felt that wide beam and large genoas were both good for performance and readily adaptable to cruising boats. At older ages we need power assist for these sails, so he added power furling to all of the sails including the mainsail. Vertical battens facilitate an in-mast furling system rather than a boom furling one.

He appreciates a nice size genoa sail for its power, as I have expounded for a number of years in my discussions of the slot effect and with my mast-aft design. His inner forestaysail is also tacked well aft of the headstay to add versatility to the sail plan.

A neat bit of seafaring subtlety lies behind the design of the inside steering station. The enclosure provides superlative shelter, but isn’t part of the interior volume of the vessel.

There is one other problem I find. When the young ‘marketing guys’ get there hands into it, there always seems to be a bit of a nudge to the upper end performance specs in order to compete with the multihull capabilities…sometimes to the point of exceeding displacement hull speeds

http://www.portsmouthmarine.com/Expedition55.htm

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1416555/0

Ted Hood, Designer & Builder
http://www.yachtworld.com/portsmouthmarine/portsmouthmarine_4.html

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by RHP

.................
Mike, where did you find Angantyr, any web reference?

She is now sold, was in Houston when I looked at her.

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

.....................To facilitate a shallower draft he makes use of an older design know as the Scheel keel..............

Brian
You can do better than the Scheel.

The scheel was supposed to do two things, get the ballast COG lower and provide an end plate, it does neither very well, I thought that detailed tank testing has killed off most interest in this keel and that increased resistance exceeds any net benefit?

I think it was Ted Brewer who initially found that a simple wide keel or a tapering keel ( wider at the bottom) both outperformed the scheel in all aspects, you may want to contact him.
A modest simple bulb even of square section is preferable these days if you really need a thinner root but my money would be on a wider conventional keel since you can get the engine and tanks down a lot lower in a shallow draft vessel. Centre boards can be light weight too and easily removable through a bolting case top. or big racing boat style dagger boards up through the deck.

[Guillermo]

From Portsmouthmarine pages:

".....Now it's time to head home, and you're faced with a 50-mile passage into a head wind, rain, and big seas.
No problem. Your new sailing yacht can power at 11 knots even in rough weather. It has a special hull shape that is fast under power and a 300-HP auxiliary that will bash through almost anything."

I find this totally misleading (mmmm....may I say it's bullshit?)

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

...I find this totally misleading (mmmm....may I say it's bullshit?)

Thats what I was saying about when the young 'marketing guys' get their hands on it

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by MikeJohns

Brian
You can do better than the Scheel.

Thanks Mike, I've not studied it that deeply.

BTW, did you get that private email I sent you inreference to an Australian gentleman who wanted to contact you in reference to Angantyr ??

[Guillermo]

Brian,
not only the young marketing guys are to blame.
I do not like the concept itself.
To pretend an absurd amount of engine power (5.63 HP/tonne!) is somewhat the motorsailers' paradigma, is just not right to me.

Down here some numbers for her:

Data:
Lh = 16,71 m
Lwl = 15,07 m
Bmax = 5,47 m
Bwl = 4,41 m
Draught T = 1,94 m
Body draught Tc = 0,78 m (measured on plans)
Disp = 24187 kg (full load)
Ballast = 8172 kg
Sail area = 138,42 m2 (I,J,P,E based)
Power = 221 KW
Heeling Arm = 10,65 m

Estimated:
Wetted Surface = 62,23 m2
Length/Beam Ratio L/B = 2,84
Lwl/Bwl Ratio Lwl/Bwl = 3,42
Ballast/Disp Ratio W/Disp = 0,34
Displacement/Length Ratio D/L = 197,12
Sail Area/Disp. Ratio SA/D = 16,82
Sail Area/Wetted surface SA/WS = 2,22
SA (metric)/ Power (Imp.) SA/HP = 0,46
Power/ Disp. Ratio HP/D = 5,63 HP/ton
Hull speed HSPD = 9,42 Kn
Potential Maximum Speed PMS = 9,91 Kn
Velocity Ratio VR = 1,05
Best motoring speed (1.1) CSPD = 7,73 Kn
Capsize Safety Factor CSF = 1,91
Motion Comfort Ratio MCR = 34,22
Heft Ratio HF = 0,94
Righting Moment/Beam RMB = 1,08
Roll Period T = 3,87 Sec
Roll Acceleration Acc = 0,11 G's
Stability Index SI = 0,71
Angle of Vanishing Stability AVS = 115 º (A pity the real thing is not informed)

I have found no STIX information, not a GZ curve at the web pages.

Cheers.

[brian eiland]

This was another rather long subject thread dealing with this same subject matter:

Monohull verses Multihull Powersailers/Motorsailers
Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers

"I've wanted to bring up a subject that seems to be a trend amoung monohull folks lately. I can only think it has to do with the competition they are feeling from the multihull market. I continue to see these inflated claims as to their particular design's performance capabilities, particularly under sail....."

[CaptScot]

A Trawler Motorsailer or (Troller Yacht), Diesel Duck 38 - are very economical to run and sail with many used for bluewater cruising world wide. All are amature built and the least costliest way to get out there for the average guy.

A complete set of professional plans 17 sheets (24" x 36") for a low maintenance fiberglass/wood/epoxy Diesel duck 38 by reknown yacht designer George Buehler. Included on rolls are lofted to full-size most hull station molds.

As much as I planned and looked forward to beginning this interesting, fun as easily do-able project for a long time, at present building a Diesel Duck of my own is not in the cards. Therefore, I am offering for sale for some lucky person these plans for a bargin price and fraction of the original price of $500, plus postage or make offer. The DD38 plans originally sell for $2,295, see links to Buehler website below.

Also included are two books: Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilder, Boatbuilding by Chapelle. The Diesel Duck is George Buehler's most popular design with dozens of these sturdy homebuilt ocean going boats sailing the world; see links. Buehler's practical design permits an amateur to build a sturdy boat from scratch with ordinary materials, ordinary tools, custom built to your needs and taste, all for a fraction of the price of a new boat. They are also economical to run.

There is a member group of several Diesel Duck homebuilders sharing info and photos at Yahoogroup's BackyardBoatbuilders2". Buehler's book "The Troller Yacht" would also be a good book to have for building this boat which describes these type of trawler yachts.

Easy to build, lots of room for liveaboard cruising, and furnished to what ever your imagination can dream up. The oceans of the world will be your oyster, not just reserved for the mega-buck yachts. My email scottcatherine@yahoo.com

http://dieselducks.com/Jerrys%2038Duck-2.html

http://dieselducks.com/Duck38study.html

http://dieselducks.com/stock%20plans.html

[VASCONY]

Originally Posted by CaptScot

A Trawler Motorsailer or (Troller Yacht), Diesel Duck 38 - are very economical to run and sail with many used for bluewater cruising world wide. All are amature built and the least costliest way to get out there for the average guy.

A complete set of professional plans 17 sheets (24" x 36") for a low maintenance fiberglass/wood/epoxy Diesel duck 38 by reknown yacht designer George Buehler. Included on rolls are lofted to full-size most hull station molds.

As much as I planned and looked forward to beginning this interesting, fun as easily do-able project for a long time, at present building a Diesel Duck of my own is not in the cards. Therefore, I am offering for sale for some lucky person these plans for a bargin price and fraction of the original price of $500, plus postage or make offer. The DD38 plans originally sell for $2,295, see links to Buehler website below.

Also included are two books: Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilder, Boatbuilding by Chapelle. The Diesel Duck is George Buehler's most popular design with dozens of these sturdy homebuilt ocean going boats sailing the world; see links. Buehler's practical design permits an amateur to build a sturdy boat from scratch with ordinary materials, ordinary tools, custom built to your needs and taste, all for a fraction of the price of a new boat. They are also economical to run.

There is a member group of several Diesel Duck homebuilders sharing info and photos at Yahoogroup's BackyardBoatbuilders2". Buehler's book "The Troller Yacht" would also be a good book to have for building this boat which describes these type of trawler yachts.

Easy to build, lots of room for liveaboard cruising, and furnished to what ever your imagination can dream up. The oceans of the world will be your oyster, not just reserved for the mega-buck yachts. My email scottcatherine@yahoo.com

http://dieselducks.com/Jerrys%2038Duck-2.html

http://dieselducks.com/Duck38study.html

http://dieselducks.com/stock%20plans.html

Originally Posted by brian eiland

I’ve always had great respect for this gentleman Ted Hood, so it was with great interest that I read of his latest project, the Expedition 55, in the Oct issue of Cruising World magazine.

What is most interesting is the apparent reluctance to use the term ‘motorsailer’. Instead the popular notion tends to be to call them expedition yachts….long range yachts “as capable under power as under sail”. I too could be accused of often using this ‘expedition’ term, but I’m still not afraid of the very descriptive word motorsailer. At any rate it is a pleasure to see these ocean capable cruising style vessels coming back to the forefront of sailing yacht design, in lieu of the ‘racer/cruisers.

I won’t get into all of the details of the article in Cruising World mag, but I will hi-lite a couple of the more interesting aspects. To facilitate a shallower draft he makes use of an older design know as the Scheel keel. And to better its windward performance he adds a centerboard to that keel. It will work great, but I wouldn’t want to maintain it. Imagine the stuff that will find its way into this slot at the bottom of the keel, and then how high you might have to raise the boat to get at the exposed board. I think I would opt for just the plain Scheel keel.

From a man who made his name in ‘sails’ (Hood Sailmakers was once the biggest loft in the world), it was pleasure to here him quoted, “he’s always felt that wide beam and large genoas were both good for performance and readily adaptable to cruising boats. At older ages we need power assist for these sails, so he added power furling to all of the sails including the mainsail. Vertical battens facilitate an in-mast furling system rather than a boom furling one.

He appreciates a nice size genoa sail for its power, as I have expounded for a number of years in my discussions of the slot effect and with my mast-aft design. His inner forestaysail is also tacked well aft of the headstay to add versatility to the sail plan.

A neat bit of seafaring subtlety lies behind the design of the inside steering station. The enclosure provides superlative shelter, but isn’t part of the interior volume of the vessel.

There is one other problem I find. When the young ‘marketing guys’ get there hands into it, there always seems to be a bit of a nudge to the upper end performance specs in order to compete with the multihull capabilities…sometimes to the point of exceeding displacement hull speeds

http://www.portsmouthmarine.com/Expedition55.htm

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1416555/0

Ted Hood, Designer & Builder
http://www.yachtworld.com/portsmouthmarine/portsmouthmarine_4.html

What will be your oppinion about ATOA and Nordhavn's MS 56'
www.atoa64.com
www.nordhavn.com

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by VASCONY

What will be your oppinion about ATOA and Nordhavn's MS 56'
www.atoa64.com
www.nordhavn.com

Very briefly, I feel the ATOA vessel is very much more a well thought out motorsailer than the Nordhavn vessel. I consider the Nordhavn vessel an attempt to 'cash in' on the motorsailer concept in a time of rising fuel cost....not much of a sailer, nor true ocean crossing machine in big seas.

[Guillermo]

VASCONY,
here you have some numbers for ATOA: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...&postcount=221

I agree with Brian: I also prefer ATOA over Nordhavn 56.

Cheers.

[Pericles]

Guillermo,

Belatedly, I have read both the sites you link to at the bottom of your posts. Mea culpa! I should have gone there months ago.

Now, if anyone said to me today "Which motor sailer do you want?" I would have to reply "Gunboat 66". "Anathema", do I hear you reply? My rationale is that both under sail and power, it delivers performance and comfort almost to perfection. I greatly admire its reserved interior style. I posted the following elsewhere and, so far, no objections have been posted.

"Anyone interested in the Jacques Vabre 2007 Race Official website where ORMA 60 trimarans are beating the IMOCA 60 monohulls and yet the ORMAs (and the Class 50 trimarans) set off 24 hours after the IMOCAs. Scroll down the righthand side of the opening page and click on Charts. There are Class 40 monohulls and, as mentioned, Class 50 trimarans also racing and Crepes Whaou, the leading Class 50 is speeding at 18.8 knots past Safran, the leading IMOCA 60 that is currently at 14.1 knots. All the Class 40s are miles behind

I would love to have a Gunboat 66, when and if the next Jacques Varbre takes place and shadow the leading ORMA, probably Groupama 2, all the way to Bahia, Brazil and about a few miles from the finishing line, let the Gunboat have its head and surge past the trimaran, to take line honours, whilst having a good meal at the table and glugging the Bolly.

It's an eleven day passage, hardly time to get used to being at sea and the vessel would be on autopilot for 90% of the voyage. The helm is a joystick.

Some may argue that the Gunboat 66 will not have the speed, but a heavier Gunboat 62 has exceeded 36 knots. I'd be delighted to give it a go.

Pericles"

Am I dreaming? Absolutely! However, the dream does point out the essential difference between Catamarans and Trimarans, that there is much more available space in a Catamaran and far less spray.

Brian Eiland has been promoting Catamarans as passagemakers more than most and he has to be congratulated for his perseverance. It all helps to convince boat owners that if they wish to continue with pleasure boating, they will have to face reality on fuel prices and start hauling on the canvas.

Motorsailers that are 70% sail and 30% power will become the norm and modern Catamarans are already showing the way.

Pericles

[Guillermo]

Yes, Perry, modern cats have been proving to be a very nice option for all around cruisers. They have some drawbacks as are the higher initial cost, high berthing price at marinas and generally speaking higher maintenance costs. And, for all around cruisers, the lack of self-righting ability is also a minus in spite of all the enthousiastic positive arguing from the concept lovers.

After analyzing many of the present crusising cats, I come to the conclusion the great majority of them can be categorized as proper motorsailers from the propulsion point of view, so probably it's unnecessary to do so. In my opinion, I'd rather keep the term 'motorsailer' reserved as a category for monohulled boats, with a distinct emphasis for the pilothoused ones.

Cheers.

[marshmat]

I have read reports from many cat owners claiming the high berthing cost at marinas is not as big an issue as it is made out to be. Cat owners often seem to prefer to lie at anchor or on a mooring, far cheaper than a slip for such a boat, and the cat can often carry a better tender than a similar-sized monohull does.

I agree with Guillermo that the majority of sailing cats appear to perform well enough under engine that virtually all can be used as motorsailers, so there's not much point in using the term there. I, too, think of a motorsailer as being a monohull sailboat, often with somewhat higher superstructure and ideally a pilothouse, and with enough engine to achieve a decent cruise speed in mediocre weathere.