Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers

[Ragman]

Tank you Guillermo for your fast reply. I know the website but some how they are very poor in responsing to enquiries so i rather try to get some info on their motorsailer from this forum as i can't seem to get anything from their email contracts as posted.

Cheers
Ragman

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Ragman

.....so i rather try to get some info on their motorsailer from this forum as i can't seem to get anything from their email contracts as posted.Cheers Ragman

Take a look back at posting #79 and click on website http://<http://www.bwsailing.com/01a.../0405/bwb.htm>. There is mention made of Seahorse Marine. I've corresponded with Bill Kimley, the owner, on several occasions a few years back. But he has since built his Mandarin 52, bought a fiberglass production facility, and been pretty busy with his troller vessels. He just might be a little busy to answer all inquiries right away.

[Guillermo]

PROPOSED (ALL BOATS) NEW LABELING SYSTEM:

M 14/14

First figure relates to the SA/D ratio (to the closest integer), so to the sailing power, and
Second figure relates to the 6*HP/D ratio (to the closest integer), so to the motoring power.

Letter is related to the D/L ratio, as follows:
VL = Very low D/L ratio, under 100
L= Low D/L, from 100 to 200
M = Medium D/L, from 200 to 300
H = High D/L, from 300 to 400
VH = Very Heavy D/L, 400+

- If ratio in label is greater than one, the boat is sailing oriented. If less than one, motoring oriented.

- If first figure is 14+ the boat has plenty of power under sails alone. Lower than 10 seems too low sails power to me for a motorsailer: The boat should rather be considered a "sail assisted motor boat". Higher than 16 the boat should probably be better classificated as a pure sailing boat, with more or less engine power.

- Second figure being over 18 usually means quite an excess of engine power, in my opinion. For an efficient motorsailer, it should be around 14, let's say from 12 to 16.

- What are called 50/50 motorsailers by the "century" rule, become 14/14 (more or less) under this labeling system.

For samples with various motorsailers, please visit: http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/motorsailers.htm

The benefit of this labeling system, against the "century" formula is that saying that a boat is a 50/50 motorsailer says nothing about the real sail and engine power of the boat, nor if she's light or heavy, while this new label I propose really does.

Now we can even add some letters at the end, to better explain the intended design (Or marketing!) concept, as MS for Motorsailers, PH for Pilot House, RS for raised saloon, OC for ocean cruiser, etc, etc (and even a letter for the number of hulls, if necessary). So, if we read something like M16/12 RS-OC, we can understand the boat is a "medium weight, sail oriented, raised saloon ocean cruiser" most probably with a good performance under sail and with an engine allowing for economic motoring passages but having yet enough power reserve to beat to winward in a gale.

Guillermo.

[sharpii2]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

PROPOSED (ALL BOATS) NEW LABELING SYSTEM:

M 14/14

First figure relates to the SA/D ratio (to the closest integer), so to the sailing power, and
Second figure relates to the 6*HP/D ratio (to the closest integer), so to the motoring power.

Letter is related to the D/L ratio, as follows:
VL = Very low D/L ratio, under 100
L= Low D/L, from 100 to 200
M = Medium D/L, from 200 to 300
H = High D/L, from 300 to 400
VH = Very Heavy D/L, 400+

- If ratio in label is greater than one, the boat is sailing oriented. If less than one, motoring oriented.

- If first figure is 14+ the boat has plenty of power under sails alone. Lower than 10 seems too low sails power to me for a motorsailer: The boat should rather be considered a "sail assisted motor boat". Higher than 16 the boat should probably be better classificated as a pure sailing boat, with more or less engine power.

- Second figure being over 18 usually means quite an excess of engine power, in my opinion. For an efficient motorsailer, it should be around 14, let's say from 12 to 16.

- What are called 50/50 motorsailers by the "century" rule, become 14/14 (more or less) under this labeling system.

For samples with various motorsailers, please visit: http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/motorsailers.htm

The benefit of this labeling system, against the "century" formula is that saying that a boat is a 50/50 motorsailer says nothing about the real sail and engine power of the boat, nor if she's light or heavy, while this new label I propose really does.

Now we can even add some letters at the end, to better explain the intended design (Or marketing!) concept, as MS for Motorsailers, PH for Pilot House, RS for raised saloon, OC for ocean cruiser, etc, etc (and even a letter for the number of hulls, if necessary). So, if we read something like M16/12 RS-OC, we can understand the boat is a "medium weight, sail oriented, raised saloon ocean cruiser" most probably with a good performance under sail and with an engine allowing for economic motoring passages but having yet enough power reserve to beat to winward in a gale.

Guillermo.

I Like your new system. It may be better than mine. Under my 'century' system, if a boat has at least '50' in one or the other propulsion category, it would be capable of making an entire voyage under that propulsion category.
That way, if it were an 'P 70/30 H', it would be a heavy sail assisted powerboat. It could only make an entire voyage under power. Beating off a lee shore under sail alone would not likely be in the picture for this boat. But not neccessarily.

That being said, your system is more descriptive because it tells you how much sail or power you have.

When you said hp/D do you mean hp per ton? And if so, do you mean intermitten, peak, or continuious?

It's interesting to note that more than a few 'pure sailboats' have S/D's of considerably less than 14. I know of several that are less than 12. For my money, I would make the cut off point less than 10 even though I know of a few that were less than even that.

Bob

[Guillermo]

Bob,
My system tells nothing about the range under engine, because that depends also on the amount of fuel carried. I've found many actual 36-40 ft+ motorsailers that even having a good HP/D ratio, they carry only around 3-400 lts of diesel, wich is not enough for a long passages scheme nowadays, in my opinion. (Although you always can sail the world without an engine, for sure!)

When considering power for my system, I always consider continuous, although this concept is dissapearing nowadays from the talking of actual engines manufacturers.

Yes, a pure sailboat can have a very low S/D, and for sure have no engine at all. But you know, we are talking about finding a more or less accurate way of simply transmitting a gross idea of the capabilities of a certain boat. And even for sailing boats with low S/D and no engine, they may be labeled let's say as an H 12/0 or so.

Regards,
Guillermo.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

PROPOSED (ALL BOATS) NEW LABELING SYSTEM:

M 14/14

First figure relates to the SA/D ratio (to the closest integer), so to the sailing power, and
Second figure relates to the 6*HP/D ratio (to the closest integer), so to the motoring power.

Letter is related to the D/L ratio, as follows:
VL = Very low D/L ratio, under 100
L= Low D/L, from 100 to 200
M = Medium D/L, from 200 to 300
H = High D/L, from 300 to 400
VH = Very Heavy D/L, 400+

.

That makes sense to me, but why not be a little more informative?

Why not put the complete information about D/L ratio in your system?

It would give something like this: 295/14/14 and 305/14/14. These boats, by your system, would be classified diferently, the first as a Medium displacement boat and the second as a high displacement boat, even if they are very close to each other in what concerns D/L.

[sharpii2]

Originally Posted by Vega

That makes sense to me, but why not be a little more informative?

Why not put the complete information about D/L ratio in your system?

It would give something like this: 295/14/14 and 305/14/14. These boats, by your system, would be classified diferently, the first as a Medium displacement boat and the second as a high displacement boat, even if they are very close to each other in what concerns D/L.

Because the exact D/L is really not that important. What we're looking for is a general idea of the boat's 'size' and likely capabilities. Since the 295 D/L and the 305 D/L are so close together, you might as well call them both 300's.

Besides, the D/L number doesn't tell us as much as it seems to. A 'plank on edge' and a 'skimming dish' can both have the same D/L though they really have little else in common. Not only that, but by having the keelson hovering just above the water for as much as 1/3 or even 1/2 the length of the actual hull has been a rule cheating device used for generations.

When the D/L is quoted, the implicit assumtion is that the boat has rather typical proportions. Such as a Beam that is 3/10 to 1/3 it's Length and a Waterline that is 3/4 to 7/8 its Length as well. And that the 'overhangs' are little more than a raked bow and transom. If these assumtions are true, then the D/L ratio can tell us some real useful though generally vague imformation.

It must be noted that if two boats have the same Length, Beam, and Displacement but relatively small difference (say 10-15%) in waterline lengths, they can have a really drastic difference in D/L numbers.
Take a 3,000lb 20 footer for example. If it has a 20ft WL, its D/L is 169, but if it has an 18ft WL, which is only 10% shorter, it has a D/L of 233.

One would clearly be classified as 'light' where as the other would clearly be classified as 'medium'.

Bob

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Vega

Why not put the complete information about D/L ratio in your system?

Hi, Vega
Bob took off the words from my pen!
I agree D/L is not such a relevant parameter to be in the labeling system as they are SA/D and HP/D. I think we only need to have an idea of what is the kind of displacement the boat we are trying to describe has, in a very simple and illustrative way. In my opinion VL, L, M, H & VH letters illustrate quite well the concept.

[Guillermo]

We can add some letters at the end of my labeling system, to better explain the intended design (Or marketing!) concept, as MS for Motorsailers, PH for Pilot House, RS for raised saloon, OC for ocean cruiser, CC for coastal cruiser, etc, etc (and even a figure for the number of hulls, if necessary).

So, if we read something like M 16/12 RSOC, we can understand the boat is a "medium weight, sail oriented, raised saloon ocean cruiser" most probably with a good performance under sail and with an engine allowing for economic motoring passages but having yet enough power reserve to beat to winward in a gale in protected waters.

Going further, we can try to look for how to better enphasize and define some subtle but most important differences like the ones between boats labeled as M 14/14 CCPH and M 14/14 OCPH. To this end, and using what's already available in the industry, we can add the UE Category Design letter (A, B, C, D) which in a very precise way defines the designed weather-coping ability. So we arrive to the very precise:

Full Labeling System
"A" M 16/12 PHMS

We have labeled here a real ocean going, medium weighted, sails-only oriented, nicely powered, pilothouse motorsailer.
A whole lot of a definition. And a whole lot of a boat.

For those not familiarized with the UE Design Category, here you have the meanings:

- A, applies to boats designed to cope with winds in excess of force 8 and waves over 4 m. Oceanic.
- B, to boats designed to cope with winds up to force 8 and waves up to 4 m. Short open seas passages.
- C, to boats designed to cope with winds up to force 6 and 2 m waves. Coastal sailing.
- D, to boats designed to navigate in protected waters, maximum force 4 and 0,5 m waves.

In most European countries you are allowed to sail only within a zone defined by the local authorities, based on the Design Category and the safety equipment carried aboard. In Spain, with the proper safety equipment, you have no restrictions for a boat labeled "A"; you can go off to 60 miles from a shelter, for category "B"; 25 miles for category "C" and 5 miles, in sheltered waters only, for category D.

For more on this and more Motorsailers & Motorsailing matters, visit the new web pages at: http://www.xente.mundo-r.com/motorsailers

All contributions to those pages will be greatly appreciated.

[brian eiland]

I just happened across this website reference to the Mariner 50 Motorsailer of which there were an indicated 15 built.

Bill Kimley of Seahorse Yachts in the last years built a brand new motorsailer based on the original mold, making a few improvements. The addition of the integrated swimstep added two feet of length, thus the Mandarin 52.

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

I just happened across this website reference to the Mariner 50 Motorsailer of which there were an indicated 15 built.

Bill Kimley of Seahorse Yachts in the last years built a brand new motorsailer based on the original mold, making a few improvements. The addition of the integrated swimstep added two feet of length, thus the Mandarin 52.

Noted.
Brian, would you please send to me some info on main characteristics of your 65' Expedition Cat, to be used for the labeling system study purposes at my web pages on Motorsailers & Motorsailing?
Thanks in advance.

[KC in OC]

Brian, thanks for your above post and e-mail on the Mariner 50 & Mandarin 52.

I own a Mariner 50 Motorsailer, Hull # 1, and am very interested in discussing the Mariner 50 & Mandarin 52 with other owners. If enough interest is available, I would like to start an owner's group. So if any member or friend is interested, give me a reply.

In the mean time I plan to return to work refitting and modifying my Mariner 50 in January of 2006. I have just had successful carpal tunnel operations on each hand and am looking forward to getting them dirty again.

This forum is interesting and thanks again for bring it to my attention.

[OldYachtie]

My next boat will be a catamaran, but I remember one six month stretch when two Wharram cats went missing off New Zealand in 1977-1978. I knew people on both boats. One was "I Love You 2," and the other was "Tanya". I knew the owner of Tanya rather well. His name was Shawn Blanchford, and he was English. I suspect that they broke up rather than turned turtle, as I have my doubts about their scantlings and about their beam attachment system.

[longliner45]

Ok. Ive read the thread; gotta put my 2cents in ; I worked a 31 ft jc boat- mono hull in the gulf of mexico , been critisized for only going 80 or 120 miles out and staying for a week . at a time. this boat had twin 210 hp turbo charged volvos with duo prop outdrives. she had a 6000lb payload, 13 airtight compartments. she had a semi displacment semi planing hull. in 3 to 5 ft seas we could do 20 knots and burn 1.5 gallons per hr .loaded.in the 80s there was 1 weather satelight which made 1 orbit every 5 days. got caught in many tropical depressions and 4 hurricanes.the last one I was in was hurricane juan 44 hrs at the wheel.I have retrieved sword fish gear in 70 knots gusting to 110knots. this boat had hard chine and was a real good riding boat . you can look up old articals in national fisherman magazine for Broad bill and broad bill2 and touche'.circa 1980s early90s. I rode on 300 ft processing boats -the holland .Ive rode sailboats ,Ive rode cats but not a tramerand, but my vote goes to mono hulls especilly the 31 ft JC boat.also we made 40 trips a year ,one must always respect mother nature and know your limits ,but it was real nice to have a good boat........longliner ; sorry the jcboats were fishing boats...but I wish they had a sailboat

[Guillermo]

Longliner,
Here the link to 31 JC boats: http://www.31jcboat.info/
Although not a motorsailer, she really has to be a nice boat to stand the weather conditions you mention.