I find your definition of motorsailers quite loose, indeed! In my opinion we should narrow it, as to all of us know what we are talking about when we talk about motorsailers. If you want to find my way of thinking about them, you may visit the page I make just for fun at: http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/motorsailers.htm
About your proposal for the labeling system I find it interesting and it could be great to quickly indicate the designing concept. But maybe it depends too much on "...subject to individual judgement..." When you navigate internet and boating literature you find a lot of imprecise talking about XX/YY combinations based many times on the feelings and enthousiasm of the author, not facts.
well, Guillermo, looks like we share some common points in the definition of what is a MOTORSAILOR, but also some differences.
I think that the concept of Motorsailors has changed. Of the original concept, back from the 60s, based in the Nordic fishing boats, only the Nauticats (the old line) and the Fishermans remain in production (to my knowledge), both boats representing now a marginal branch to both companies. Northshore bets on the Southerlies and Nauticat has gone to a new line of boats, a new line they have called “Pilot house sailing yachts”, by opposition to the other line they call “Traditional”.
They could also have called the new ones “Modern”, because it is what they are. For me that kind of boat is the new Motorsailor:
They are different from Sail boats because the motor they carry is not just for going in and out of port, but have the capacity to drive the boat (in conjunction with the sails) in any situation and for a long time. Of course, for that they have the capacity to carry two or three times more fuel than a sailboat of the same size.
They are different from the old Motorsailors because they carry more sail, are less heavy and not so high. They can sail almost as well as a modern sailboat and a lot better than a lot of older sailboats. They don’t need to carry as much fuel as the older type because they can use wind a lot better and they don’t need to carry so much water and provisions, because they are a lot faster. Oh, I almost forgot, they are also more seaworthy than the vast majority of traditional sailboats. Normally modern ocean going sailboats have a LPS of 125. This new kind of boats goes for a minimum of 135 and can go as high as 160.
They also offer an interior steering post with good visibility all around. With one of these, sailing is always a pleasure even with rain or cold.
I Think that Chandler defines very well the market:
“I think most motor sailor owners appreciate the silence of sailing without the rigors of sailing.”
Well, there are not new “old type motorsailors” arriving at the market (for many years), but, on the other hand, from the new type (according to my definition) there are several new boats arriving.
Take a look at the new 385 from Nauticat and the new 40 from Nordship.
Bottom line, from your definition I agree with this:
"Motorsailers should be, in my opinion, hybrids among sailing boats and motor boats, with amplier volumes than those of a pure sailing boat (And to my taste with a nice pilothouse!) to make them more livable and able to carry a generous cargo; have manegeable sails but able to easily develope hull speed under sail alone; have a propeller-engine combination allowing for a fuel efficient motoring and with power enough to reach hull speed, as well as some extra muscle to beat dead to winward in a storm (force 10) in protected waters.”
And that is your full definition.
The only difference is that it looks it means different things for you and for me.
As I stated in the last part of my definition you omited, the clasification of "modern" or "old" motorsailers should be related, from my point of view, with the D/L and SA/D ratios.
Old motorsailers (Banjers, Fishers and the like) went for as high as 450 for D/L and modern ones tend to be more in the 250-350 range, so they are quite lighter. The reason for this evolution are modern materials, engines and equipments. SA/D ratio for modern motorsailers tends to be between 13 and 15, so they are quite sail efficient, while old ones' ratio was more in the 10 to 12 range, or even less, as sails were rather conceived as auxiliary (You couldn't do wonders with D/L's of 400-450!)
Pilothouse Sailing Yachts are, in my opinion, close cousins to Motorsailers, and boundaries are, of course, diffuse. They are even lighter and with more sail area, caracterized by a D/L ratio from around 200 to 300 and an SA/D ratio from around 16 to 18. To see some time advanced designs of this concept, you may have a look at Ted Brewer's Panoceanics: http://www.panoceanic.net/, already designed in the 80's
It has to be noticed that most of the actual manufacturers of Pilothouse Sailing Yatchs do define precisely them as such, not as motorsailers.
Nowadays there is tendency (Paradigmatic in the USA market) to overpower these Pilothouse Sailing Yatchs, probably conceived for short seas - fair weather islands hopping, giving them HP/D ratios well over 3, and providing wide flat sections at the stern. That's why I think this concept is getting apart from the motorsailers one and boats under the PSY category should not be classified as MS.
With wide semi displacement sterns the PSY may not do well in heavy seas ,
and may be impossible to hove to.
Add the light scantlings , large deck house and seaworthyness further diminishes
A motorsailor (to me ) is a capable offshore vessel , not a weekend inshore toy.
Wonder how many of these PSY ever go to Bermuda in December?
Wonder how they handle with 30-60 man days of food & water per seagoing bunk?
I agree with you when you say:
”Pilothouse Sailing Yachts are, in my opinion, close cousins to Motorsailers, and boundaries are, of course, diffuse. They are even lighter and with more sail area…”
But when you say:
“Nowadays there is tendency (Paradigmatic in the USA market) to overpower these Pilothouse Sailing Yachts, probably conceived for short seas - fair weather islands hopping, giving them HP/D ratios well over 3, and providing wide flat sections at the stern. That's why I think this concept is getting apart from the motorsailers …”
I think you are putting to many things in the same bag. I am an European and I don’t know the American boats as well as the European, but one of the new Pilothouses in the American Market is the Cabo Rico 42 PH. That is not a flat bottom boat and certainly it is not designed for “short seas and fair weather islands hopping”.
Probably you are referring to the Hunter 426 DS and boats alike. This kind of boat, that has the same flat hull as the “normal cruising” version, has very little in common with the Cabo Rico 42PH. On the other hand the Cabo Rico has a lot of points in common with a modern motor sailor, so many points (seaworthiness, long range passage maker, power and fuel to motor or motorsail for a long time, etc) that for many, the boat is a Motorsailor”.
Around here it is the same, there are some companies that have the same (flat) hull in a Deck Saloon version, like the Sun Odyssey 40 or 43 DS. These boats are so far away from Nauticats, Reginas or Nordships as the Hunter is from the Cabo Rico. They don’t have flat hulls and are all very seaworthy boats, in a word, passagemakers.
You are right, these boats come in the “Panoceanics” tradition and like these are intended for extensive travel. Main difference seems to be on the underbody
That appears to be more modern and faster on these new reformulations.
You say that:
“… most of the actual manufacturers of Pilothouse Sailing Yachts do define precisely them as such, not as motorsailers.”
And you are right but I think that it is just because the word “Motorsailors” has in the sailing community a somewhat negative connotation ( old, slow etc). Fact is that when European sailing magazines test these boats, they call them many times Motorsailors.
One of the few that is not ashamed to call their bopats motorsailors is the “Degero”, a Finnish good quality boat. His boats are advertised as Motorsailors:
If you take a look at the boat data you are going to see that it is a similar boat to Reginas or Nordship.
Fast Fred, all the boats I was talking about are oceangoing boats. They are not planning boats and their hull is not flat. They are all small production, very solid and unfortunately, expensive boats.
Once I have read a test of a Nordship 43 published in “Yacht” the biggest German sail magazine.The wind was blowing between 25 to 30 knots and the boat was making over 7 knots in all sailing positions. The main comment on the boat was: “A boat for all weather” and the German are kind of shy regarding compliments.
Finally, I would like to say that I like almost any kind of boat, including “Traditional Motorsailors”.
I'm an European, too, investigating the motorsailers concept world wide, just for thew pleasure of it.
Cabo Rico 42 PH is a very nice ocean going sailing yacht, with a D/L of 361, an SA/D of 16.18, and a HP/D of 2.78
So, from my point of view she has somewhat big sails to be a motorsailer, but modern rigs and gear allow nowadays to handle bigger sails even to a short handed crew, although, of course, for a price. I do not know her hull lines but she looks like being quite effective under sail alone. Maybe that's why the manufacturer does not market her as a motorsailer. I think she is well classified as being an Ocean Going PSY, close to the concept of an Ocean Going MS (The diffuse boundaries I talked about)
On the other hand this manufacturer is the same for the Northeast 400, marketed as a Motorsailer. Northeast 400 has a D/L of 249, an SA/D of 14.02 and an HP/D of 3.74 . So she is proportionally much lighter than Cabo Rico 42, has less sail area and a bigger engine. Stern sections seem to be flatter than those of the Cabo Rico 42. Also this boat has proportionally bigger windows in the pilot house, to my taste, probably noy allowing her to be classified under Design Category "A" under the CE RCD rules. She'd probably qualify as "B" category (60 miles off coast) at its most.
Well, I'm not going to correct Cabo Rico's denomination for their boat, but what I'd say is that she doesn't look to me an ocean going boat. I find she has been designed rather as a fast coastal motorsailer. I would like very much to know her designer opinion.
I've checking DEGERO's yatchs. The manufacturer does not talk about them as being Motorsailers. As a matter of fact they only add the "MS" letters to the 28 feet model. The rest have "S" or an "DS" surnames. Interesting the 28MS seems to have an SA/D of 17 and an HP/D of 3.87 (!!). I find the 36DS and 38DS as coming into to my motorsailers concept.
All of the DEGERO models have somewhat short fuel tankage, so they seem to be conceived also for short seas hopping, (this having a lot of sense for a Finnish boat), although here under the North European style.
Should we talk about two different nowadays approaches to Coastal Motorsailers: Fair Weather (Northeast 400 approach) and Rough Weather (Degero's or Paul Gartside's approaches)?
Of course coastal boats can do passagemaking with fair winds...
And, should we talk also about having two categories for Ocean Going Pilothousers: PSY and PMS? (Both of them for rough weather, of course!)
"she has somewhat big sails to be a motorsailer"
Simpler just to call the old very heavy displacement MS with huge engines and tiny sails 50/50s
And the modern light boat and engine with REAL sail ability 90/90.
Of course the add dept of every old slug in the world will claim its a 90/90 !
Fast Fred, 90/90, that's a good one. That's what I was talking about when I was referring to the new Motorsailors, or should we call them Sailmotors? LoL!
Anyway I am talking about semi-custom boats, and if you want a smaller mast they will mount one, if you want a slightly bigger motor, they will provide one, that's not a problem. Anyway if you don't want to carry all the sail, you can always take a reef.
Guillermo I do agree with Fast Fred in the definition of a different motorsailor, but I don't share his contempt for traditional motorsailors (old slugs?). I have been at your site and was impressed with the quality and the level of participation in the forum dedicated to a boat manufactured in relatively small numbers.
I didn't know the boat and she is a nice boat, a boat that deserves the big amount of care that the typical owner seems to provide in the maintenance and improvement of his boat.
Regarding the pleasure that comes from "investigating the motorsailors concept world wide, just for the pleasure of it", that is also a pleasure for me and not only with motorsailors, but also with sailmotors LOL.
Do you know this one?
The real boat looks much better. I have been inside one in the Dusseldorf boat show, and the interior is amazing.
She is also a very fast boat her looks are misleading. They have a big club and they race their boats, can you believe it?
Thanks for your kind words about our Banjer 37 web pages.
I've found the SIRIUS yatchs very interesting boats, coming exactly into my definition of motorsailers. They have an D/L around 250 (quite light!), SA/D around 13 and HP/D around 2.5 They are designed under Category A, so real oceangoing yachts. The only "..but.." could be I find the fuel tankage only useful for coastal cruising (Same problem with Degeros).
Have you seen the Vancouver 38 Pilot? ( http://www.northshore.co.uk/) Wonderful boat, too. Somewhat heavier (D/L around 350) and with bigger sails (SA/D = 15.7), has an HP/D of 2.5, designed under A Category, but also with a somewhat short tankage (I estimate a range of around 370 miles at it most)
I've found this tankage problem to be quite extended. It seems many modern Motorsailers said as ocean going ones, do not fulfill the expectations because of the tankage. The pursuite for lightness and sailing performance has this penalty.
Interesting to know that Banjers, our old heavyweight ladies, have a fuel tankage of 900 l, so being able of around 900 miles under engine alone at 6 knots. That's really convenient, from my point of view, although you pay the price of the big displacement, of course. And even more interesting is to know that Banjers were not conceived as ocean going motorsailers, but coasters. Maybe to be able to do extended coastal crusing in grounds where there was a lack of fuel supplies? (...Mediterranean 35 years ago?)
I'd like to find one of these modern Motorsailer designs, in the line of Vancouvers and Sirius, but with some more range under engine, what I consider most convenient for globetrotting purposes. Do you know some? ...Or, are we obligued to go heavyweight for that?
Fast Fred: The problem, from my point of view, is that XX/YY talking is too imprecise and whisful thinking influenced (excellent for sales people..!).
Regards to both of you,
Yes I know the Vancouver 38 pilot. It is the old 38 Vancouver with a pilot house. It is a good, nice and very seaworthy boat, but also a very expensive one - something like
290 000 euros (standard boat) and it comes only with a 365 l fuel tank. If you want you can mount (and pay) the additional tank.
Almost ( if not all ) oceangoing boats come with a standard diesel tank, but if you want you can mount another, as an extra. Normally this kind of boat comes with a diesel tank of around 300l, with an option to mount another, and that is more than enough for a boat that can sail well.
About the Sirius take a look at this "Ocean" version. As you can see they have mounted another diesel tank.
About your quest:
"I'd like to find one of these modern Motorsailer designs, in the line of Vancouvers and Sirius, but with some more range under engine, what I consider most convenient for globetrotting purposes. Do you know some?"
It is also what I am looking for, not only for the pleasure to look at nice boats, but also because I intend to have one of those when I retire (a solid seaworthy boat that can be easily handed solo, with a sheltered place to steer and a long range), some years from know.
The real problem is not finding one, but finding one I can afford. I am looking at a maximum price of 350 000 euros, and that includes taxes, all the extras. Generally this means that the Standard price of the boat should be around 250 000 euros. I am not interested in a used boat. I think that this kind of used boat has a highly inflation price. Typically a used 10 year old boat costs you 30% less and probably you have a lot of expensive things that need replacement and a lot of others that can malfunction at any moment.
There are lots of boats that suit my needs, but not my money, for instance this one:
I have found that the ideal boat for this kind of program, is between 40 and 43 ft., but I have also found that this kind of boats, in that size range cost more than what I can afford. So, I am looking for the same kind of boats between 38 and 40 ft., and here they become rare (long range ocean going boats). This is the size that matches the 350000 euros . There are some exceptions though; I mean boats over 40ft that come inside the budget.
What prices are you looking at? Or are you a lucky guy that has no need to worry about that?
I have to go. Nice talk .
Here my proposal for a labeling system for boats with motor and sails:
Letter relates to the number of hulls: M: Monohull; C: Catamaran; T: Trimaran
Number after letter is the integer number for (D/L ratio)/10. So 250 would be just 25, 372 would be 37, etc.
First figure in fraction: Integer number of the SA/D ratio, so 14.56 would be just 14.
Second figure in fraction: Integer number for HP*1000/D. So 2.35 would be just 2, 3.15 would be 3, etc.
Maybe this system is somewhat "connoisseurs" oriented, but I think it give us a more accurate idea of the boat's concept than the XX/YY system.
Sorry for the delay in answering, but business distracted me from the important things...
No I'm not so wealthy as to say money is not a problem. As matter of fact it is the problem. 350.000 are big moneys for me, so no way of spending them in boats. I'm rather planning to invest in them, by (someday) designing, professionally building and commercializing my dreamed motorsailers.
Last edited by Guillermo : 06-10-2005 at 01:37 AM.
Yes, many times money IS the problem. Anyway I don't have that kind of money, I just hope to be able to raise it when the moment comes, and for that I will have to sell a lot of things...but we don't live for ever, and that boat (the retirement boat to travel and live aboard) is a priority for me.
Fortunately, dreaming is for free, so take a look at some nice Pilothouses and Decksaloons that unfortunately are mostly out of my imaginary budget.
Analizing 45 motorsailers from 25 to 54 feet, I have found that dividing the SA/D ratio by 6 times the HP/D ratio, the result should be around one (1.00) for what I understand as proper 50/50 (90/90?) oceangoing motorsailors.
So we may use, to compare things, a new HP/D ratio formulated as:
Then we can approximate this number to the closest integer and introduce it in the labeling system I proposed before, so the "fraction" into the label give us a better idea about the relation among power of sails and engine.
So, a monohull with D/L ratio of 356, an SA/D ratio of 14.5 and an HP/D ratio of 2.3, would have a label like:
If the fraction in label is lower than one, then the boat is motor oriented and if bigger than one, sail oriented.
Another option to simplify the labeling is to eliminate the hull letter and express the D/L ratio as a range, in the line of Sharpii2 proposal (Light, Medium, Heavy, Very Heavy, or similar), so we could label the boat with the ratios upwards mentioned as: H14/14
The benefit of this labeling system, against the century formula is that saying that a boat is a 50/50 says nothing about the real sail and engine power of the boat, and this new label I propose does.
Last edited by Guillermo : 06-12-2005 at 05:31 AM.
Motorsailer from Sea Horse Marine in China
Has anyone heard of the Co. called Sea Horse marine in South of China. They make a motorsailer there, think it's about 45 to 50 ft. Any comments ??
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