Containerable Motorsailers

[Guillermo]

Love it also. After trimming and slimming, just a dismountable wheelhouse top and, voila!

[Vega]

Originally Posted by yipster

in europe boats older than 8 years dont have to pay customs, younger boats pay fractions up to full tax for new boats
..

Hello,

I am interested...but I don't know anything about it.

If you buy a boat outside of Europe, it is considered an export, and you don't pay taxes there and pay the VAT (taxes) in Europe. On top of the VAT you have to pay something more?

[yipster]

hey Paulo, i thought seriously you know more about that than i did. no, exect shipping etc i dont know of any extra cost
buying outside bringing something into one of the the country's is import and one has to pay VAT taxes in one's EU country. if not new you pay only a part of the new VAT. and ive heard of more variaty's and possibility's i forgot the details about right now. strassbourg or bruxelles should have the latest EU laws witch doesnt mean they necceairely apply to your or my country since all EU country's still are independent souverign nations. for example on new cars here in holland you have to pay -besides the VAT- an extra 20% or so luxery tax. that tax was condemned by the european court, but last time i checked it was still there for reasons named above. the stars in our EU flag have another strange story, ya see, i've heard of a bell but lost track of where to ring it

[Guillermo]

In Spain, if you import a new boat from outside the EU, you have to pay VAT and custom duties. On top of that you have to pay registration taxes (At the Boats Property Public Registry) which can be as high as 13% of the purchase price, and there are also other minor duties to be paid to the Maritime Authorities for the boat's inspection and the getting of the mandatory registration number to be exhibited at bow sides.

[Vega]

But you can have the boat registered in another EC country. Lots of boats in Spain with other EC banners.

I guess that if the boat is new you still have to pay that special tax that you have in Spain for boats (like the luxury tax Joop was talking about regarding cars in Holland. - we have also one of those for cars) but you can gain in the VAT.

There are several boats in Spain registered in Madeira (Portugal). I know personally the Spanish owner of one. That’s because in Madeira and Azores the VAT was only of 13%, (15% now) and if you register the boat there you only pay that, as VAT.

If you buy a used boat out of EC, and choose to register and pay VAT in Azores, you can declare a reasonably low value for the boat. They will accept it without discussion (they don’t know much about boats and don't really care, because this is good income revenue for them) and you will pay the VAT over the declared price.

A friend of mine that has lived for some time in Canada, returned home in a boat bought there. He paid VAT in Azores. I am not going to tell you for how much he declared the boat, but it was just a fraction of its real value.

[Guillermo]

Paulo
As far as I know (And I have some experience on this, as my office takes care of recreational crafts legalizations), an spanish resident owning a foreign flagged vessel (And this applies even for EU flags) cannot legally command such a boat in Spanish waters. Probably an stupid thing, you may say, but the problem is that there is still no harmonization in this matters among EU countries.

This happened to a friend of mine (spanish) a short time ago, who owned a portuguese flagged motor cruiser: Customs stopped him at sea and told him he couldn't be the captain of such vessel when in spanish waters. After discussing very much with authorities for several weeks, he finally had to change flag to spanish, to not be fined. And, to put it in better perspective, let's say he was in close relation with maritime authorities....

Those people you know with Madeira flagged boats (Some even came to my office) are risking quite a lot if they are spanish residents and command the boat: If Customs or the Guardia Civil board them at sea for papers, they will probably be fined right on, and maybe even boat captured and retained. On the other hand, there will be no problem if captain is portuguese at the moment of the boarding.

And I have to tell you I have been boarded twice in the last three years: Once by Customs and the second time by the Guardia Civil. And I do not sail that much...

Cheers.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

On the other hand, there will be no problem if captain is portuguese at the moment of the boarding.
Cheers.

Crazy stuff and I had thought that the Portuguese were the worst bureaucrats.

Do you mean that the huge number of German flaged yachts, belonging to Germans that reside in Mallorca (retired people) are illegal? And that their boats can be confiscated?

I guess that here, there and everywhere there are a lot of abuses regarding the EC law. I think that is not a question of harmonization, but a question of an exception to the general rule, as it is the case with cars (that one is allowed for a transitory period).

Are you sure that EC law permits such an exception?

Of course, if a National government choose not to follow the rules, there is no other option to the european citizens than to complain to the european court, and that will take years...and in between you have your boat confiscated

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Vega

Do you mean that the huge number of German flaged yachts, belonging to Germans that reside in Mallorca (retired people) are illegal? And that their boats can be confiscated?

One of the problems with statistics in Spain is that there are several millions of people living here, but keeping residence in their countries of origin, like those german retirees you mention. And this is one of the reasons why economy in Spain, in spite of the severe structural deficiencies, continues on growing: Internal demand, due to this people and also the huge amount of illegal inmigrants, rises every year. And that's also the reason for the incredible rate of residential building in Spain: Around 800.000 new ones a year,the biggest in the EU by a difference.

So, coming back to your question, most probably those germans you mention keep their german residency, and so they may command their german flagged boats here with no problem.

Cheers.

[Willallison]

It's taken me some time to get to this thread - it's a ripper!
Just to clarify, what are the internal dimensions for a shipping container?

Fred - your 4-stroke outboard idea has some merit. I've argued elsewhere around here that the extra cost of a diesel means that the additional fuel costs inherent in running an outboard are somewhat mute - though of course it does effect the vessels range. There are other considerations too - like battery recharging and hot water, but these can be addressed in other ways. There is a great deal of discussion on the subject in the Option One thread. I don't know, but I would imagine that you can't ship a containerised vessel with any flammable materials inside..?

Container size:

http://www.export911.com/e911/ship/dimen.htm#xDimension

[FAST FRED]

Fred - your 4-stroke outboard idea has some merit. I've argued elsewhere around here that the extra cost of a diesel means that the additional fuel costs inherent in running an outboard are somewhat mute - though of course it does effect the vessels range.



The trade off would not be too bad if the outboard had the counter rotating props , which is a claimed 30% efficency booster at cruise.

A Mercruiser out drive , if coupled with a shaft , comes off in a few bolts and weighs far less than a 150 to 300hp outboard .

To maximise boat liveability , the drive or outboard would need removal, to make it in Da Box.

Comparing the prices , a 300hp outboard IS cheaper than a diesel , but the service life of 1000 hours would be gone in 4 to 5 years of vacation use.

The diesel would be just broken in.

FAST FRED

[Willallison]

Do you really need that kind of hp Fred? You were talking semi-displacement type speeds before - without running numbers, I would have thought something in the 120 to 150hp range ought to do it.
A sterndrive need not be removed if the leg is under a platform, or the cockpit. Though, as you say, with space at a premium it may become necessary...

[FAST FRED]

I would have thought something in the 120 to 150hp range ought to do it.

I understand your thinking however , with a lightweight boat (under 10,000) lbs and the really skinny hull speed is expensive ,but not as expensive as you might think ,,within reason.

My numbers show a 120hp instalation would cruise at 16K on under 4 gph.

4 gph cruise 80-85hp = 2000 lbs thrust (std 4 blade)

But 30K would be avilable with a 300 hp engine that dosn't weigh much more

250 hp cruise = 10 gph . 30K / 10gph = 3nm gal

If the math is right a 1 gph increase in fuel flow doubbles the speed, sounds OK to me.

Comparing 125 hp John Deere , with 300 Yannmar.

FAST FRED

[Willallison]

4 1/2 tons is probably doable, without getting too carried away with the weight. But remember that a 30 knot boat needs substantially greater scantlings than a 20 knot boat
A quick look at the power curves for the Yanmar 6LP STP (300 / 315hp) shows 250hp at 3800 rpm. This in turn shows 14 gph - so if my maths is right, you will need to increase your consumption expectations considerably. The same engine pulling 120hp is using 6 pgh @ 2600 rpm.

[FAST FRED]

An engine will burn about a gal an hour for every 20 hp at cruise speed.

The lower fuel burn for the extra speed is because the small engine would have a std conventional prop, the high speed (30K ) version would need the complexity of the stern drive with counter-rotating props to get the claimed 30% improvement.

A diesel outdrive setup would be at least 1,500lbs , the outboard much less.

With a good cruising range (400+miles minimum 700 prefered) the weight of needed fuel should offset some of the diesel weight.

Of course 50 to 100hp and a 16K cruise could mean a much lighter diesel OR outboard.

The price of speed is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FAST FRED