A bluewater, ocean going water ballasted matorsailer. Why not?

[Guest62110524]

Originally Posted by Stumble

LOL ouch, attorneys like that hurt the reputation of us all... Personally I prefer the pay standard rates for a build, then sue for damages when the boat fails sea trial (don't they all )

The onlt time I could really understad structuring the contract like that would be if the builder and designer are from the same company, and the boat is being designed to fulfill some particular task, and the design side is warrantying that the design will meet that criteria.

Otherwise... morning Whoosh.

when I build I offer, "are you sure you do not want instrument by way security over what you have paid"
WOT!! they say
look, so many people do not even check to see how solvent the builder is
they hand over a pile of cash, the builder then buys the materials, or does he? well oft he pays off what he owes from last build
For myself I was freehold, own home, own building shed etc
I never made a fortune, but made lots lifelong friends
True story
once this guy ordered a boat, he refused to pay the tax, he came out with some really big mates, I never caved, I called my wife, to bring down a shotgun, she was as mad as a cut snake, normally she is calm, anyways she arrived with a rifle, unloaded, she did not present the rifle to them, thjey went away, came back with the cash, later, years later, the guy comes back, "will you build me another boat"!!!!!
I leart, the law does not work, for builders, I will never employ a lawyer again, afer the very first yacht , came to litigation when the creep refused extras. thisguy had stayed with us, ate with us, a real shark Ruined my life 3 years
I will build you a boat Stumble, honestly, worthely, but cheat me, you are in trouble)

[Stumble]

Personally I always pay my bills, and usually a little something more if the work clearly showed that the people did a particularly good job. For the bottom job on my sailboat I wound up paying about 4K to the yard, and handed the guys who did the actual work an extra $200 each for a job well done. I figure they went the extra mile, and while the yard makes their money on the front end, it is always good policy to make sure the guys on the back are happy too.

[xarax]

I bet there are many more lawyers than motorsailers in Florida ! ( not sure about Grand Banks though...)
In Greece we have discovered an economical way to reduce their number : We bribe the judges instead. Bad for justice, good for economy. Life is a compromise.

[Guest62110524]

Originally Posted by xarax

I bet there are many more lawyers than motorsailers in Florida ! ( not sure about Grand Banks though...)
In Greece we have discovered an economical way to reduce their number : We bribe the judges instead. Bad for justice, good for economy. Life is a compromise.

silly people have let Boas go in glades, now THERE is something Almost as dangerous as a lawyer

god for you stumble, put your dial on faces to names thread

[Stumble]

I keep meaning too, but can't find a picture that doesn't make me look like either a suit or a bum... It seems those are my only two forms of dress... Either ready for court, or ready to dive in the bilge.

[Pierre R]

Originally Posted by xarax

Having said that, I still believe that there exist a real market and engineering window for a, (well, not so much ocean going or so long range if we can not achieve it), fast sailing motorboat. The tasks that I dont want to leave out is of self righting and 25 knots, because otherwise this window will remain closed, Could water ballast be the solution to this problem ? That WAS the case...

I would bet there is a healthy market for such a boat just like there is a healthy market for people wanting to go to Mars. There is also and engineering window for both this boat and the trip to Mars.

I would like such a boat.

[Guest62110524]

Originally Posted by Pierre R

I would bet there is a healthy market for such a boat just like there is a healthy market for people wanting to go to Mars. There is also and engineering window for both this boat and the trip to Mars.

I would like such a boat.

tee hee Pierre,

[xarax]

Originally Posted by Pierre R

I would bet there is a healthy market for such a boat just like there is a healthy market for people wanting to go to Mars. There is also and engineering window for both this boat and the trip to Mars.

I would like such a boat.

Pierre R, Wolsh, Mars trip is only a few decades away ! Mars is VERY near earth, what are you talking about ? Are you telling me that the whole problem would be solved is a few decades? Sailing boats are around for 5000 years, and your problem guys is a few decades ? I would be very glad if there will be fast semi displacement motorsailers or sailing motorboats in a few decades. Canting keel, foils, staff like that made a century to evolve, and still they are not mainstream, and your problem is a few decades ? Are we in a hurry to meet the 'higher authority " ( well, apex1 and I doubt its existence, this is a rare point we agree !), so we do not care what will be achieved after a few decades ? Or you should better choose another telling example of future space travel, like this to Andromeda ?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...vSwKQD99OCVQ82
"Work isn't as far along on a larger rocket called Ares V, which would lift heavy equipment into orbit for a moon mission and an eventual trip to Mars."

[xarax]

The Oakley self righting mechanism with the use of water ballast ;
http://books.google.com/books?id=V8a...chanism&f=true

Richard Oakley designed this mechanism 50 years ago. Man was not on Mars at this time, not even on Moon. The Oacley class lifeboats saved 1456 lives. He was a man that any "higher authority" , and we the humble servants, should have been proud of, I believe.
Richard A. Oakley (1906-1988)
http://www.rina.org.uk/c2/uploads/ri...0_%20final.pdf
Oakley Class lifeboats were narrow displacement hull boats, but faster than the older lead ballasted self righting lifeboats, because they were lighter. A mechanism like this, combined with a high raised watertight deck house, ( which is the way of the contemporary lifeboats ), should been able to self right even the wider, semi displacement hull with all the appentices of a light fast motorsailer / sailing motorboat.

[xarax]

And this one is travelling with 32 knots, not 25...Well, I would be more than satisfied with 25 guys, after all we are talking about a trip to Mars here, right next (galactic)door, not to Andromeda !

[Pierre R]

Will you settle for 20 knots on an ocean crossing?

A boat can easily be designed to do local waters at 25 knots, carry enough sail to do 5-6 knots and be purpose built to be cheaply shipped on the deck of a Ro-Ro boat across the pond. When I say cheap I mean cheaper than she could do it on her own bottom and at 20 knots aboard another ship.

Such a boat needs to be kept under 14' from keel to the top, 12' wide or less and 45' long.

[xarax]

Originally Posted by Pierre R

Will you settle for 20 knots on an ocean crossing?
A boat can easily be designed to do local waters at 25 knots, carry enough sail to do 5-6 knots...
Such a boat needs to be kept under 14' from keel to the top, 12' wide or less and 45' long.

As you also have mentioned some time ago, 8-9 knots is enough IFF by the term "ocean crossing" we mean literally ocean crossing, or crossing a sea at a 6, even 5, or a long range, many hours trip, or a night trip. We should not go faster on such trips, for many reasons, even if we could.
The speed of 25 knots is dictated by the times we live, not by me...If the cheap, or not so cheap, alternative can go 25 knots top speed,( like the Swift"trawler" for example), a fast motorsailer should go also 25 knots top speed. She would be much more expensive, probably much more fuel thirsty, with much fewer living spaces, much lower freeboard, much higher maintenance costs, well, after all these shortcomings she should not be much slower, should she ? Of course when we say 25 knots, we mean our 25 knots in sea states where the usual cruising motorboats are achieving their 25 knots, which does not include seas with high winds and choppy waves, even in inland waters. A motorsailer could/should/would go under sails in these conditions.
You numbers seems to be on the low side for a bluewater boat...How are you gong to achieve self righting ? If you DO NOT use any water ballast, and use only a high raised watertight deckhouse, like the lifeboats do, you would suffer from excessive windage, not to mention your looks which would be quite odd, to say the least. I was thinking of a hull having a deep "pad", like that of some Nordhavn hulls, where one can put the heavy machinery end batteries, may be a little amount of lead ballast too, so the CG will be low, so the self righting will be easier and faster. Nordhavn calls it "maintenance strake" (see attachment). But can such a hull be transformed to a semi displacement hull, or the drag of any such "pad', even if is flat bottomed, is not compatible with the complex function of the 25 knots speed semi displacement hull? This is the level of complexity we were talking about the other day that I guess could be not predicted by any theoretical equations, and can only be subject to the primordial try and error method...( I may very well be mistaken here, of course. I do not have access to the best computers, the best programs....)

[Pierre R]

25 knots is in the express range, not the semi displacement range. We are probably talking about a deep V type flat out planing hull.

[xarax]

Even if we go to 60 ft ? What is the max semi displacement speed for 60 ft ?

[Fanie]

If I have to flee from SA to AU at 10kn it is going to take me 17 days as the crow flies.

At 7kn it's going to take 24 days.