A bluewater, ocean going water ballasted matorsailer. Why not?

Originally Posted by john.G

http://www.dixdesign.com/cargo50.htm
Oh yeah, it can't be done right?!?!

Wowwwwww, thats a true performer! Congrats.............you have understood what Xarax means. 6kn........

Originally Posted by whoosh

Count again Stu!

The former maybe the latter surely not.

And one question besides: do you see any positive sense in the U boot comment above? You call me rude and your friend clever? Your biased my friend.

Originally Posted by xarax

Well, it looks quite beamy to me, compared with the hull of a traditional motorsailer, or of the slender hull of a motorboat like this :
http://www.rangeboat.com/index.php
designed by Nigel Irens. And when I say fast, I mean faster than the pure displacement speed. the 47 ft MLB travels at around 25 knots,
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...c=GetTRDoc.pdf ( see also its righting moment / heel on page 15 )
so does the 52 ft "trawler" like Beneteau, but the traditional Nordhavn 57 motorsailer, (that costs a fortune), drags its old lead foot at 9 knots !

These DGzRS boats are pretty fast (from 24kn up, depending on length), but of course not as slender as the rangeboat (which is less seakeeping). The "Swift Trawler" is´nt a bluewater boat, and is much fatter than the lifeboats.
The Nordhavn is, what it is: a motorsailor, slow but capable.

I am sure that even in the case of testing very sophisticated vessels, as these lifeboats, when they perform their final tests on them, the chief engineers are holding their breath and their fingers crossed! It needs only a frozen O-ring to kill all people aboard a complex vehicle......

There is nobody holding his breath when these boats are tested, the systems are at least double redundant, the hull is double (around the heat exchanger triple) bottom on a web frame (see the reports and pictures two pages back) and they are done at the best yards worldwide, Abeking & Rasmussen, Lührssen and Fassmer. The ultimate test they stand every Winter in the North Sea and never they failed.
But of course they are not what you are looking for.

And no matter how often you try in your really stubborn manner, the Oviparouswoolmilkpig will not appear.

I give up, enjoy your sandbox kids, time for the adults to go to work.

[xarax]

Originally Posted by apex1

And one question besides: do you see any positive sense in the U boot comment above? You call me rude and y

Apex1, this comment was just a humorous joke reply to the humorous joke reply of Stumble, in my effort to try to release any pointless tensions and forget the bitter words enchanted between us. You haven’t noticed the smilies , just as the other time around. Your pressure could have problems, as an overheated steamer ! You haven’t noticed also that I, from my part, erased my posts that would be thought as offensive to you, after your apology to me for your, always previous to them, similar comments.
Calm down, relax, and I hope we drink a hot chocolate
together some day (not in the White house, I hope, because I don’t drink beer...)

[xarax]

Stumble, Apex1 just gave me the crucial idea I was missing ! The Oviparouswoolmilkpig of Apex1...Speaking of chocolates, I finally got it ! (PAR would be delightful too...)
Chop a pointy bow and a stern to a Toblerone shaped hull, stick a mast, a daggerboard and a rudder to each side of it, and here you go ! No water ballast whatsoever, self righting, and fast, if you remember to lower (actually, to pull out higher...) the submerged sail...

P.S. No water ballast and no racial case here, too...It is a black chocolate, in a black background. I wonder, is it made in Swiss, or in Germany, like the cuckoo clock ?
And the Cat comes out of the bag...
Xarax, ( typing the famous words by Orson Welles, just for entertainment value...) :
"In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace—and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
Apex1 :
I´m not proud about that (we made a few better inventions), but twrch (the "ch" stands for Suisse, I guess) is right, the darn Cuckoo clock is from the Blackwood forest Germany.
Apex1, after all this I must confess I prefer British humour and German machinery, lifeboats, U boots, chocolates and cars ( I have a small A class...and I finally got my driving license after 40 years of escaping from "authorities")

[xarax]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

1000 miles at 9 knots, or 500 at 18 knots would be fine,
More likely to be 200 miles at 18K, IF that's acceptable , your task is easy.
FF

I see the 47 ft MLB numbers and they are closer to your value ( Mine are closer to Swift Trawler s...) But an ocean going bluewater boat with only 200 miles ? A boat like this should live in the small window, if it still exists, between bluewater sailboats and bluewater motorboats, and 200 miles sound few to me...I am not a boat market person by any means, of course. I just think that our Imaginative clients would prefer the 3000 miles of Nordhavn 56 MS, even with its 9 knots crawling speed... ( If they have the 1.5-2.0 million of the Nobel/Millenium/Abel price or the Lotto)

[xarax]

Originally Posted by Pierre R

Xarax what kind of speed are you looking for under sail?

As I have said, this is a great unknown, to me at least, at this point, because I don’t know how fast a (possibly) two mast, low centre of effort rig would propel a 50-60 ft beamy, semi displacement hull (with quite a lot of wetted area compared to a sailing boat s hull), but possibly, just possibly, capable of trimming its angle of incidence , transversally or longitudinally, by using its big water ballast tanks. There have been some efforts to design a so called'dual purpose" sailing/semi planning hull by the use of water ballast in the past, I don’t know what happened at the end.'

[xarax]

Originally Posted by apex1

These DGzRS boats are pretty fast (from 24kn up, depending on length)

That is about the speed of the Swift 'Trawler" and the 47 ft MLB. I think that is the minimum speed of the sailing motorboat of the future, to be able to make some room and fit in between its classic cousins.

Originally Posted by apex1

Xarax1:
I am sure that even in the case of testing very sophisticated vessels, as these lifeboats, when they perform their final tests on them, the chief engineers are holding their breath and their fingers crossed! It needs only a frozen O-ring to kill all people aboard a complex vehicle......

I was answering to the dispatch between the necessarily limited and incomplete scientific understanding of a complex system and the actual final product, where many engineers put on their managerial hat instead, and pretend they have calculated everything because of market, or political, pressures. ( Engineers who objected to the launching of the Challenger space shuttle were told: Now put on your managerial hat and take off your engineering hat...) That was the case of the O- ring disaster, where the systems were thought to be something like seven times redundant ! Space shuttles sometimes go down and lifeboats always stay afloat ? Read the Noberl price phycisist R. Feynman report and memories of the Shuttle disaster. He points out just this : that there comes a point where complexity surpass our means of scientific complete control of complex machinery. So my comment was about this, and not at all a negative comment about German engineering, as you probablly got it wrong. German engineering is the best in the world ( well, after the Japanese ...I had a Toyota and now an A class, and so I can tell the difference.

[Stumble]

Xar,

You keep raising the point of comparable boats in the 1-$2,000,000 USD range as being too expensive. What do you think any boat of this size is going to cost? 2 million for a 50' boat is actually pretty cheap, and what you are proposing, assuming for the moment that it is even possible, would be a radical custom boat with all sorts of custom equipment. I would guess the price tag would be at least several million, but may be even more.

Just looking at the parts, you have a couple hundred thousand dollars in engines, god knows how much in electronics ( probably 50K), Hundreds of thousands in designer costs, and we haven't even started building yet. All up this boat could easily be 5 million USD assuming it would even be possible.

[xarax]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Xar,
You keep raising the point of comparable boats in the 1-$2,000,000 USD range as being too expensive.

No, misunderstood, I never said anything about the cost of such a boat, on the contrary I repeatedly said it is going to be expensive, if feasible. Of course not so expensive, if we also take aside the designs cost that I hope you guys will provide me for free... I just said that 2 millions, even worthless today US dollars, is too much for 9 knots !I( And this was the cost years ago, when I asked because we all had bubble money to spend...Now, if it is still produced, it could cost much more, and now we have much less money to spend, well, I am speaking for myself here...!)
9 knots ...This is not an acceptable 21 century motoring speed... The speed/cost ratio tends to zero !...

[Stumble]

And here I am looking seriously at buying a DASHEW FPB 64 with a cruising speed of 9 kn simply because the boat is so fuel efficient. It may only do 9kn, but it does it on 2 gallons/hour instead of the 75 gallons/hour of my current boat running at 25kn. Ya it may take me twice as long to get there, but I can do it at a fraction of the fuel cost. Heck the Dashew is actually cheaper to operate per mile than a comparably sized sailboat.

[Guest62110524]

Originally Posted by Stumble

And here I am looking seriously at buying a DASHEW FPB 64 with a cruising speed of 9 kn simply because the boat is so fuel efficient. It may only do 9kn, but it does it on 2 gallons/hour instead of the 75 gallons/hour of my current boat running at 25kn. Ya it may take me twice as long to get there, but I can do it at a fraction of the fuel cost. Heck the Dashew is actually cheaper to operate per mile than a comparably sized sailboat.

well thats a wise decision indeed, but in rough weahter it,ll arrive BEFORE
Most high powered(planing) boats are so badly configured underwater, lines wise, that anything more than a small wind wave chop, stops em

[Stumble]

But on the Dashew I can comfortably run through rough weather. If you aren't familure with the boat the designer of the prototype boat took it out in 25' waves as part of the final seatrail http://dashewoffshore.com/fpb_first.asp and because of its hull even in those conditions it was still motoring along at 10kn.

The idea of outrunning weather to me has always been a questionable endevor, yes it can be done, but it should always be a loast resort when you have no options, not part of the expected use of the boat. Now route planning to stay away from bad weather however is just part of long distance cruising.

[Guest62110524]

yes I know the boats, have seen the videos,
I shared a yard in NZ that built one of Dashews Sundeers, in al al
Personally I think, that big s.h.p yachts should be banned, when a 60 footer can empty a 2000l tank in the blink of an eye, then they are using more fuel than your family car does in year
If you look at my website, , that river boat there will do over 4000 miles at canal speed on the 2000l using 16shp at 4.5 knots
Reason for the 114 max was the Rhine, Rhone and Danube can run nine knots at times

Originally Posted by Stumble

Ya it may take me twice as long to get there, but I can do it at a fraction of the fuel cost. Heck the Dashew is actually cheaper to operate per mile than a comparably sized sailboat.

I doubt you´ll need twice the time buddy. Your long range cruiser can do these 9kn even in bad conditions (in good ones he performs better). In fact even in all conditions you feel safe in (because you did not avoid them). A "Swift Trawler" as mentioned by our Greek friend, will fall into pieces when heading into a state 6 sea at 9kn. Read: if that plastic toy would be able to cross oceans, it would be much slower than a FPB, just due to the fact that it cannot go continuously ahead regardless of conditions (within a sensible range). Many unexperienced boaters believe they can hold a given "cruising speed" over ocean passages during the whole trip. They are wiser after the first one!

some comments here on Manie´s thread:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/ope...eds-28385.html

Originally Posted by xarax

Of course not! But so far we have not lost a single one. And I doubt there are many vessels capable to survive multiple capsizes in a groundsee with the Superstructure bouncing on the ground!? Our boats have proven they do, and went back into service after minor repairs.

Well I am sure you can tell. As you probably can tell us why not the Japanese but the Germans have the wealthiest economy in the world (and prove that since 35 years by being the number one export nation).

Do´nt worry about my blood pressure, I´m fine and always was. In fact I was´nt ever ill in all my life (so relaxed are my days).

Regards
Richard

[xarax]

The sad truth is that very few people, especially among the young , prefer to buy a classic motorsailer. How do you guys explain this fact ? Don’t tell me about the high cost. The same people do buy ridiculously expensive cars and motorboats,...My own explanation in this thread was that today, to the eyes of younger people, any motoring speed below, say, 25 knots looks like it is eating one s time out of his life . It is modern fad, I know, life is a marathon, not a 100 metres race, travelling through space with speed has nothing to do with travelling through time, but this fad is a very persistent one, we have to accept it. That is the main point of the water ballasted motorsailer, a light fast motorsailer that is not a slender multihull neither a looong monohull. I thought it would do no harm to investigate the feasibility of a sailing motorboat that uses water ballast, a portion of which we could always dump and then pump again, instead of lead ballast that we be have to carry all time. Time will tell, we can just wait and continue sailing at 6 knots, future will come with the speed of a bullet, as always.

[Pierre R]

Originally Posted by xarax

The sad truth is that very few people, especially among the young , prefer to buy a classic motorsailer. How do you guys explain this fact ?

My own explanation in this thread was that today, to the eyes of younger people, any motoring speed below, say, 25 knots looks like it is eating one s time out of his life .

One word, Ignorance. Same reason they buy the Benny. Wisdom comes in time from bad judgement and enough ingested sea water.

Cheap Boat builder's know this and pluck the pigeons off the roost. I see many of these entry level lightly build boats being promoted as blue water yachts by the builders and media. I think the modern production built items like quality in cars, electronics and better weather reporting contribute to this false god of the sea. We are lucky that a few good boat builders do exist. Buyer beware has never been greater than in the boat market today.

Unfortuanately the sea still takes all ties and sea monsters still exist no matter what gagets you have aboard.