Welding a steel hull

[Wynand N]

Thanks AdHoc.
Of course I still feel the same way. As I told Welder, criticism can either be constructive or destructive depending on what one want. I always choose the former....

Point is, we missing something here. I never condoned sloppy work and my steel boats are testament to that. Your reply is based on quality etc and with that take I am in total agreement with you.
As said before, I had done my apprenticeship and subsequent years in a refinery and coal/steam power generating plants where everything is done 110% due to immense pressures and dangerous gasses dealt with, in fact, much higher QA (always a third party like TUV doing QA over and above the in-house team) than any ship building concern. Sometime one got pissed with a welder rejecting a prepared joint that was actually well prepared. This taught me that to do something right with care, take less time than a rush job that has to be done again. Good work became a habit and difficult to shed.

However, we are talking small boats here, mostly to be build by amateurs and most of them will be build outdoors in a backyard, shed or in a bush. Many of them will not see a shotblast gun, but be treated with some chemical to remove rust etc, and best is, they will sail over big oceans eventually. I had seen small boats being built and weld that made me shiver me bones and still they do not come apart at the seams.
With the Dix43 delivered to the wharf last week, there was one of these sad little steel things on the dry - sorry I did not took a photo of it - and I could not believe the sub standard welding, skew plates, rust, chines etc on it and I was flabbergasted when I found out where she had been....And not one of those chicken shit welds failed yet.

And AdHoc and others, this is exactly my point; this little boat I saw last week is the most beautiful boat to its builder/owner, although she sat next to some nice boats.
The average amateur builder will most probably build outside, have limited skills himself, use basic stuff and small buzz box and necessity will be the mother of invention to them getting things done. These are the guys I salute having the balls to make dreams come true, by hook or crook.

And it is in that spirit that I started this thread to guide the amateur along one of the most critical parts of the process, welding. Good and sound advice is what is needed and having an arc strikes on your plates are not a good practice and need be mentioned. That said, to go technical with claims and hypothetical prophecies that it may have plate fail is unfounded on small boats and why an argument over it - that turned my piss bitter.

Most amateur boat builders are not welders and they will drag a stubborn rod to get it going, I still do after all these years. Whey will not know about Celsion (sic) electrodes for root runs or TIG for that matter, LH for filler and cap and I honestly believe they do not care. They have there little buzz box and mild steel electrodes at hand and want the job done - on on that assumption, people with experience such as W/F can be constructive in giving sound advice that is applicable.

I do not want too discuss Brent, but as said, I admire his tenacity in what he believe is right in his world. Yes, he can hijack a thread with the same story we all know so well with the origami thing, but let us for one moment put on different glasses and look at Brent again, although it is much easier to attach and make a scapegoat of him

In Brent universe he has quite a great following and perhaps this is what make some of us react the way we do, envy perhaps. He published a booklet, right or wrong and most of us not having that privilege. Quite a good number of his origami boats sail the globe - some well built others not and he has sailed himself to nice places since a young man on his own designed and built boat. What better testament can one have to prove to potential customers?

And herein lies the brilliance of his marketing; most amateurs are afraid of what they are about to tackle and the promise of a boat hull that can be folded together with very little cutting /welding and be build in good speed appeal to them. What more if the designer can be on hand to help get it together? No wonder he is so famous amongst the amateur builders in his native Canada.
Perhaps because he is the rogue amongst boat designer/builders, sailing most of the years whilst we have to scrape for a living and doing every by tradition and the book, his simplicity views on matters, having made hundreds(?)of peoples dreams came true that we love to hate him.

Perhaps I am like old Ronnie myself after all, and that is not a bad thing either...

Disclaimer: I do not like origami designs and distance myself from that building technique although others may find it as an attractive alternative building method.

[TollyWally]

Wynand,
I salute your intellectual honesty. As emotions heat and positions harden it is easy to lose sight of original intentions. I am a carpenter, I apprenticed as a shipwright, who is learning metalwork as a hobby. I greatly appreciate threads like these that add to my knowledge base.

A wise old bricklayer once told me, cosmetics aside, you can't tell the difference between good brick work and shoddy work for 30 years.

[Brent Swain]

Hereschoff, in his book "The Common Sense of Yacht Design " describes the huge difference between the college professor , exhibitionist type, who's goal is not to help , but to intimidate and impress, and a man of common sense with a sense of porportion.
I don't have it on hand , but could someone who does , please post it here. It describes this debate to a T.
My current origami boat is 25 years old, and has been cruising full time, 11 months a year, in both the North and South Pacific, and is in as good a shape as the day I built her.
Brent

[Mastadon]

I don't mean to fan the flames (it does seem a little ridiculous that there are eight pages of arc strike debate) but seeing there is a general consensus that in small craft arc strikes are a non-issue, while in large ships there seems to be a consensus that they are an issue - at what size of vessel do arc strikes cease to be a non-issue and become an issue?

[wardd]

this is a question for Wynand, why do you disagree with the origami method?

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by Mastadon

....seeing there is a general consensus that in small craft arc strikes are a non-issue, while in large ships there seems to be a consensus that they are an issue - at what size of vessel do arc strikes cease to be a non-issue and become an issue?

You'd have to generalize of course but it's going to be driven by the stress levels present. A good guideline for steel vessel plating woud be around about where global hull strength needs to be considered in a design and that's proably getting up into the 90 foot region for 'standard form' displacment boats.
As I said before on smaller steel boats the plating is so thick relative to the stresses carried that you can get away with less than ideal practice with impunity.
Many of the visual defects such as Incorrect beadshape, high spatter, undercutting, bad stop and start points are all corrected or not depending on the assesment of the inspector as to the stress levels in the structure at the point.

But you should never indorse poor practice and it never hurts to lift your game. Alloy of course is a lot more unforgiving than steel, welding skills and minute attention to detail make or break an alloy vessel.

[Wynand N]

Hi Wardd, it is not the construction thereof as such - I had build a couple of v/d Stadt 34's and quite a few Tom Thumbs 24's that are totally frameless as well during the construction stage and similar to Brent's boats, although plates are in panels and chines used.

What I do not like in Origami and it is my personal view although beauty lies in the eye of the beholder, is the way the natural shape and bend of plates of the bow and stern sections are forced into an ugly hard chine about midships and that does not gel with me. That said, welding is reduced quite considerably and that finds a lot of favour amongst followers of this type of construction.
And from "Ronnie's" point of view; less weld less problems, leaks etc

[wardd]

so its not a structural problem?

[apex1]

Originally Posted by wardd

so its not a structural problem?

Yes it is Wardd, but on small craft with relatively heavy scantlings it does´nt mean failure in every case.
Grannies cracked teapot has a structural problem but it holds tea regardless of that since granny cracked it 80 years ago.
Cracking a new teapot on the other hand is not a valid guarantee that this pot will hold tea for 80 years.

[Ad Hoc]

Apex

Nice succinct analogy

[Wynand N]

Originally Posted by wardd

so its not a structural problem?

stayed clear of that but since you asked; the v/d Stadt's scantlings are well engineered by qualified designers and origami's not. It is not just about a bare hull, but what goes into it forming the complete structure that must have the ability to handle forces like keel, mast & chainplate loads ect to name but two safely

[wardd]

is the chine that highly stressed?

[apex1]

Originally Posted by wardd

is the chine that highly stressed?

China wardd! Teapots are made of c h i n A.....................................

in case of origami toys......yes!

[M-Sasha]

Originally Posted by apex1

China wardd! Teapots are made of c h i n A.....................................

in case of origami toys......yes!

That was a good one Richard

[Brent Swain]

Originally Posted by Wynand N

stayed clear of that but since you asked; the v/d Stadt's scantlings are well engineered by qualified designers and origami's not. It is not just about a bare hull, but what goes into it forming the complete structure that must have the ability to handle forces like keel, mast & chainplate loads ect to name but two safely

As Dudly Dix pointed out , hundreds of thousands of miles, over many decades, and many boats , and many severe torture tests ,with a zero failure rate, is just as valid proof of strength as calculations by anyone. I'd say far more reliable proof.
So you say 3/16th plate in a sharp conic curve without frames is not strong enough, yet the same thickness of plate in the relatively flatter surfaces of a Van De Stadt is ? Same steel? Does the label make it stronger? Can huge seas read labels?
As for aesthetics, the chines are below the waterline, and are invisible, except when well heeled, but the curves on the ends of an origami boat are far more beautiful than ugly chines running the full length of the hull. Origami boats are indistinguishable from round bilged boats in the water, except when well heeled . There is no reason you couldn't build origami boats with those ugly, always in view, chines in the ends, but why would you? Do chines in the ends look better than smooth rounded curves. I guess there's no accounting for taste.
Brent