Welding a steel hull

[lumpy bumpy]

Ive had a great laugh reading all this , are any of you guys actually time served coded welders or a bunch of chancers who wave a rod about and hope for the best.

[shugabear]

Originally Posted by tazmann

Murielle
The reason I used stick "6011".
When I first decided to build the 26 I was going to build it out at the dairy in the shop, migs. plasma the whole nine yards there. Then the wife asked me when are you planning on working on this thing and I mentioned working on it over the weekends, Then she replied well we might as well get a devorce then if your going to be gone all the time.
Thick headed me got the hint so I built it here at the house, outside on the dirt driveway. Since I,m an old time stick welder anyway I had no problem welding with stick. Funny thing is I have a cobra push pull setup, spool gun, and a linde wire feed that all hook up to my portable welder but I was running 1/8" 6011 welding rods, It just seemed a little simpler to me sense all the welds were only 1-1/2" to 2" long at a time and had to move from side to side.
The only thing I wish I would have done diferent was buy a small plasma cutter sooner. Started out using torch with 000 tip worked good on 10 gage but when I cut out the 12 gage decks they were a bit puckerd and wavey from the heat, thinking that after stiffners and beems welded under then welded in they would straiten out "wrong" I now have built in speed bumps. Thats when I bought the plasma cutter and what an improvment, used it on the rest of boat "Live and learn"
Tom

Im new here so please exuse my ignorence on some of your topics. Yet i have over six years experience with the common 7018, 6010, 6011, and flux core and while i work in a ship repair yard now i was also a boiler maker appr. To get to my point i resently helped replace a 85 ft stretch of bottom hull on the roll of a 735 ft lime stone ocean goer in the process it is easy enough to take out yet when installing new roll plate to old hull you find yourself with alot of strong backs and and dogs what you said about the 6010 and 6011 is true it also is the best thing when you are joining old and new steel yet even with its simplicity they have a tendency to rust unless you only use it to root pass finishing with it may cause repairs earlier than you would like

[tazmann]

Originally Posted by shugabear

Im new here so please exuse my ignorence on some of your topics. Yet i have over six years experience with the common 7018, 6010, 6011, and flux core and while i work in a ship repair yard now i was also a boiler maker appr. To get to my point i resently helped replace a 85 ft stretch of bottom hull on the roll of a 735 ft lime stone ocean goer in the process it is easy enough to take out yet when installing new roll plate to old hull you find yourself with alot of strong backs and and dogs what you said about the 6010 and 6011 is true it also is the best thing when you are joining old and new steel yet even with its simplicity they have a tendency to rust unless you only use it to root pass finishing with it may cause repairs earlier than you would like

Ya lost me there, The 6010/6011 rust faster or more than what?
When finished, sandblasted and painted does one hold up better than the other?

[lumpy bumpy]

A wouldnt worry about ya work , the rest of the ship will fall to bits first .

[tazmann]

Originally Posted by lumpy bumpy

A wouldnt worry about ya work , the rest of the ship will fall to bits first .

I wasnt to worried, been welding a lot of years, never noticed one rusting faster than the other when left unpainted!

[lumpy bumpy]

What a mean taz is that in shiprepair the ships are usually falling to bits anyway , so whatever you weld its still gonna outlast the rest of the shell. Many a floating coffin bobbing about .

[shugabear]

Originally Posted by tazmann

Ya lost me there, The 6010/6011 rust faster or more than what?
When finished, sandblasted and painted does one hold up better than the other?

well tazmann from my experience 6011/6010 is a dirty weld mainly because it is easier to use on a already rusted surface unlike 7018 and flux they do not like dirty metal. also the 60s have a tendency to make pin wholes faster due to the jerking of weld motion now for they are ok for original root pass but i would suggest caping with somthing different they due tend to rust faster because they weld to rust

[shugabear]

Originally Posted by lumpy bumpy

Ive had a great laugh reading all this , are any of you guys actually time served coded welders or a bunch of chancers who wave a rod about and hope for the best.

thats some what rude wouldnt you agree most of the people are boat owners they know what they are talking about perhaps you should read more threads

[shugabear]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

Does that mean the steel alongside your weld is 30% weaker, yet you can still expect 100% strength ? Sounds like bullshit to me. How long do you have to hold the arc on the steel to weaken it 30% when dragging doesn't even warm it up.
Does that mean the dragged area in the middle of the 3/16th plate of a 36 footer may break? Bullshit!
I've heard this one before.I was never gullible enough to believe it.
Brent

im with you on that in the ship yard i work at my line of work puts me in direct contact wit ABS QA and the USCG and i have yet have an inspection fail because of arc marks. the only thing that i have been told and know is that if the ark marks show signs of weld metal then they have to be corrected other wise cleaning is all that needed.

[lumpy bumpy]

Originally Posted by shugabear

thats some what rude wouldnt you agree most of the people are boat owners they know what they are talking about perhaps you should read more threads

Some of the answers given on welding related topics shows most peoples lack of knowledge which can only be acheived after many years of welding in many various industrys . No insult was intended .

[lumpy bumpy]

However you would have thought at least one boat builder would know the location of the spur latch.

[whoosh]

Originally Posted by welder/fitter

"There is no doubt that arc strike can lead to problems with the structural integrity of welded steel, but the debate is whether it's a 'significant factor' in steel boat construction. (BOAT not ship)."

What I was debating was what you tell a person who is welding/building a boat for the first time, not degree of significance. If I still had access to a Brinell(hardness tester) I'd probably waste a weekend trying to come up with some definitive numbers. If anyone does have one at their disposal, I'm sure we'd all be interested in the results. Over all, I'd suggest that it should be considered in the same light as undercut. Significant undercut is a failure waiting to happen, yet, a small amount - how does one define "small amount"? - may have no adverse effects, depending on the other variables involved.

"After a lifetime of designing, building and surveying steel boats, I would categorically state that in boats up to 65 ft LOA or more, it's only of theoretical significance and the lack of evidence to the contrary is not due to confidentiality, but due to there being no evidence.

What few failures I've seen in steel boats have been due to gross errors in design or construction. Over my lifetime, I've slowly come to the conclusion that the ONLY merit of steel as a boatbuilding material is quite how tolerant it is of poor workmanship."

Perhaps, you are right & there is no evidence of problems associated with smaller boats, though that does not mean that such issues have never arisen, simply, that they have not been investigated. Still, why would one take the risk? How many "no big deal"s does it take to sink a boat? Stray arc strikes, undercut, cold-cracking, slag inclusion, etc., where does one draw the line? The thread was started - I believe by Wynand - to assist the first-time builder. My contention was that telling someone to drag a rod across their plate, to get down to flux coating, is not a good idea. I have no nefarious reason for suggesting that this is not an acceptable practice, there is probably no builder/boilermaker/welder/etc., here, whom has not done so at one time or another. Stuff happens, but, should it be considered unimportant?

as always you are very sensible, how are you? I,ve given up trying find 115 feeders for my hobarts and millers, I,m looking at the miller 350 p with the aluma gun, pm me, Hello Tazz
Stu

[shugabear]

Originally Posted by tazmann

Welder/ Fitter
I have been nice to you and refrained from name calling but sence you didnt explain the meaning of swain lackie and brought it up 3 weeks latter on different thread ,
I think you are a moron, you think because you have a ticket youre opinion is worth more than anyone elses and what the heck does youre grandpa or dad have to do with it, Flux core wire 5x the strength of stick "bull" prove it, show me any testing that states anything close to that and not your opinion.
There are many ways to weld a boat together and they have all been proven to revert to calling me names and inuwindows because I dont aggree 100% with you shows your inteligents.
I hate to tell you this but just because a welder is certified dont mean didly so throwing that up all the time dont help.
Try encouraging an amature welder not putting him down and comparing his welds to yours and this crap of getting a welding inspector to check welds, all that does is line your pockets and make you feel macho because you have a ticket to do so, doesnt help the amature at all.
Since you are so opinionated on welding proccedures start naming amature built boats that sank because of poor welding especialy the ones that didnt use 7018 or the great flux core wire " you have never said whitch flux core wire to use"
If you want to have an inteligent conversation about welding fine but if you want to revert to calling me names go ahead, others might get a good laugh and see what you are realy like.
Dont like origami boats, Brent, Myself , or anyone that built one fine, stay off are site and keep your mouth shut, keep putting them down and one day it will bite you. "Hint"
Tom

right on tazmann

[Brent Swain]

Great post Tom. Right on. Dont take him too seriously. People who met him here in the Comox Valley said he didn't seem to be playing with a full deck.
Brent

[lumpy bumpy]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

Friends who worked on the Liberty ships told me that a lot of the welding was downhand with a bare steel rod.
The main reason for building small yachts out of steel is the ability to hit cargo containers at hull speed on a dark night without worries, the fact that welded on deck fittings don't leak, (welding rod being the best bedding compound ever invented) and the fact that you can build a hull ,decks, cabin, cockpit, keel rudder and skeg, and finish detailing and most of the steel work on a 36 footer in three weeks, for a fraction the cost of other materials. Steel is by far the best boatbuilding material yet for offshore cruising boats, by a wide margin.
Having seen so many cruising dreams destroyed by people being sold on the "Be reasonable and do it the hard , time consuming , expensive way" ,yes I get a little pissed off when I see people trying to sucker others out of their cruising dreams.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find any welder, who, in a cramped , uncomfortable position with a sticky rod, wouldn't drag it a few times to get it started. I'd consider those who say they never do, to be bullshit artists.
Brent

Brent ya miles of the mark mate. A proven time served welder does not get a "sticky" rod .
This is how you avoid arc strikes , say for example your welding an overhead butt which may or may not be subject to 100% ut . When you strike an arc you do so approx 1 inch in front of your intended start , immeadiatly move to your start then continue welding thus covering your initial arc strike and also burning out any porosity and slag from your original arc . simple eh