Steel Hull Questions

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by KevinT, Nov 20, 2005.

  1. KevinT
    Joined: Oct 2005
    Posts: 10
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Vancouver Island, BC

    KevinT Junior Member

    Hi Everyone!

    I would like to say thank-you in advance for all the great knowledge I've picked up reading through the forums, and for any advice/help I receive in the future!

    I have some questions that I require help on at the end of this, but I thought if I give some background on whats going on, it would help with answers at the end.

    "Her History"

    My wife and I bought 40' steel sailboat about 2 months ago. I have put her up in drydock, and have taken to the task of restoring her. She was built in Vancouver by a shipbuilder as his own boat. The story I've gotten is that his health was failing as he was finishing her, and he died shortly after it's completion. It was left to the children, who put it up on the property out behind the house, where it sat for many years. It was then takent to storage when the kids sold the house, and remained there for many years until it was sold for storage fees. It was purchased by a gentleman who had plans to restore her, and put in his yard. It sat there for years, and plans turned into fiction, and it was never touched. It was then sold to people in Ladysmith, who again were going to restore her, and put under a tree, where it sat un-touched for several years again - which is where we found it, covered in moss and about 6 inches of rotten lives and pine needles on it's deck. Broken windows, massives rust bubbles, broken railing etc etc etc.
    Needless say, we climbed the ladder to the top, (amazing how high sailboats sit on land!) and looked inside her. Complete catastophe. *BUT* everything can be fixed. I can weld quite well, so we made a cash offer, and it was ours.

    "And so it begins"

    As with most huge projects, when something new is taken on, it takes a little while for the excitement to turn to focus, and get down to whats needing done in a methodical way. First couple of days, I think I must have poked at just about every part of it. Of course not getting anything done properly. I ground down half the rudder to see how the removed to paint and rust would go, stripped off some stanchions, removed some of the broken glass, and so on. Spinning wheels but going nowhere fast.

    What I've been doing and what I've learned

    So once focused on what I had to do, *AND* the order it needs doing we were off to the races. I had 2 priorities that were important. 1/ to seal up the hull where plating was bad, and 2/ to get the hull cleaned up, and painted to keep the weather out while work continues inside.

    Sand Blasting : I do work with metal, mostly smaller things, trailers etc, and have a small blasting cabinet at home which does most of the things I need. I had a siphon feed blaster that I use for bigger things, which for the most part has suited the projects I'm doing. So we took it down to the boat, and hooked it up just to see how it would work on the boat. Well it was almost Champagne time seeing that 6"x6" piece of metal shine on the keel! Problem was, it seemed to take a long time to get there because of all the rust etc that the sand had to eat into first. So I set to grinding it first, down all 40' both sides, from keel to deck. Not a fast an easy project.
    My next purchase, which I was sure would speed the whole thing up, was a 200 lb sandblasting pressure pot. Nice and shiny red, I was certain my new jewel would be the firepower I needed to get the job done. And work she did! Hooked up to my Honda Gas compressor, it started cleaning the hull quickly - with a blazing stream of 1/2" wide. Ater about 2 hours, I stood back to admire my work. Hmmmm. Calculator out, and wow, I could have this done in time for my sons wedding. He's 7 now. You get the picture.

    It was suggested with great enthusiasm that I try "Water Blasting". This came from a fellow across the bar where I had retired for a cold one after a long day slugging away at her. "No Dust, no Mess, & Fast" . So I went and rented a 4000 psi gas powered blaster from the rental company, and the waterblast head to give it a whirl. I must admidt, it does work at knocking some paint off, and it does a good job at taking rust bubbles down to the source of the problem. The dust free part is nice, but I found that unless it's tarped up, it shoots the sand about 75' around where you're working. A problem if you're in a boat yard where they are storing boats as well. So that helped me along, but still didn't do a satisfactory job removing the rust. So the plan now is to completely enclose the boat once the hull is welded shut and have it blasted with an industrial tow behind blasting unit.

    Back to the topside

    The rest of the stantions were removed. Most of the bolts holding them down had to be ground off, they were just too rusty because of the foliage on the deck. Under each one, there were holes in the deck. Roofing tar sealed the holes in the meantime to keep the rain out while I carried on removing everything else that had to come off.

    Gunwhales, gunnels, part of side that extends above the deck : These had teak on either side of them, sandwiching the steel. Problem is, they were rotten. The wood was fine but the metal was gone. Finished, they are approx 3" above the decks.

    Question #1: Do these need to be there? I have cut them down flush with the deck, and would like to rebuild them with wood from the deck up. Other than the obvious ability to keep things on the deck,and provide an extra 3" in height above the water, are they critical???? I see tons of glass boats that don't have them.

    My family had come to the boat-yard to see how the progress was going along. As I mentioned before, I was focusing on repairing the holes, and getting the outside painted and ready for our rainy season. Nothing else. The interior, although intact, was a mess. It looked like someone had dirt fight inside here. Just a mess. My son lifted up one of the bench seats, which went down to the bilge, and asked me, "Dad, whats behind here". I couldn't answer him. Other than the obvious, foam and steel. It plagued on my mind that night and decided that if I was going to take these kids out sailing, I needed to see *everything* and make sure it was right. So out came all the interior, electrical, you name it, it came out.

    Now, some of the foam was stained and wet from the holes in the decks. With a wire wheel, I made quick work of taking the foam out down to the metal. Seems that this had been painted with Expoxy paint, and then foamed. I thought great, I'll find the spots that I can see moisture had gotten at and grind the foam out, make sure the steels okay, and then refoam those sections. I was happy, and considered it to be prudent and thorough. Just at a whim, I took a section that looked pristine, and ground it down. Sure enough, the foam was fine, the epoxy paint was stained, and after grinding the paint down, very mild rust. But rust nonetheless.

    So, every section, is now ground down to the expoxy, and where that is bad, right to bare metal..

    Question #2 : Do I have to have foam? Is it the best thing? Could I epoxy paint the inside and use sheet foam for insulation and sound dampening? Or do I have to have it sprayed it again? I'm leary of foaming it again, as I have perfectly good looking foam right now, with rust damage behind it. I would prefer the ability to inspect the steel directly. Is this possible? Is there a reliable way to keep the condensation down in a boat that doesn't have spray foam?

    And the journey continues
    So this is where I'm at right now. By the end of this week, the welding will be done, and she'll be ready for blasting. The expoxy primer is sitting ready to go. We live in Qualicum Beach, which has a lot of retired folk. My boat sits by a lot of peoples walking route. I get some who say "She's going to be a beaut! Others the common "wow, thats a big project". I know once I get it blasted and that coat of primer goes on, some are going to say "That was quick" and others "Well, he must of given up on that rusted hulk and bought this nicely primed white one". I've got a guy whos 83 that walks by and takes a picture every tuesday and saturday. Says he enjoys watching it come back to life. He talks of another boat that was in my parking spot prior - the Dove II. Owned by friends Al & Carol. Another steel boat brought back and now the jewel of the harbour. Part of the inspiration for our project.


    Wind-burned face, swollen hands, aching back, 3 grinders so far, I still like the people that wander by the fence and stare in disbelief and say "How are you ever going to get that done?" I smile and say "One hour at a time".....


    Thank you in advance for any help you can give me with the questions I have, and if I can ever be of assistance with photos of our restoration or information I have collected as I go along, I will be more than willing to help any way I can.

    As a side note: I own a sign shop, and do boat lettering and graphics. We will give 50% off to any member of board needing anything done as our way of contributing to this community.

    Thank you for your time and experience!!

    Kevin Tyler
    Qualicum Beach
    British Columbia
     
  2. bear
    Joined: Nov 2005
    Posts: 7
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Qualicum Beach

    bear Junior Member

    Hello Kevin:
    I live in Qualicum Beach -- may I come by for a look? I am not an expert in steel boats, but once owned a 1960 vintage Akerboom (Dutch) steel cruiser.
    Bruce
     
  3. KevinT
    Joined: Oct 2005
    Posts: 10
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Vancouver Island, BC

    KevinT Junior Member

    Sounds great! I'll send you an email. Come on down.

    Kevin.
     
  4. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
    Posts: 3,192
    Likes: 208, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 2054
    Location: Australia

    MikeJohns Senior Member


    Kevin

    No the gunnels can go , I do think yachts need a toe rail of some description for security to stop you sliding overboard when heeled. You may consider U-bolting a plank to the stantions to give some security in this regard with a half inch gap between the bottom and the deck as one long freeing port. But you can also welt tags and connect the wood to those , do not put the wood in contact with the hull or deck the gunnel area is often wet underway and is a major rain trap too, so you will just sacrifice more of the plating to corrosion.

    As for the foam, use sheet foam by all means. Sprayed on foam makes ongoing maintenance hard. Build the internals so you can get at the inside of the hull.

    Good luck
     
  5. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 4,519
    Likes: 111, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1009
    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Water blasting works , but the shipyard setup is 40,000 PSI !

    FAST FRED
     
  6. KevinT
    Joined: Oct 2005
    Posts: 10
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Vancouver Island, BC

    KevinT Junior Member

    Thanks Mike. Thats 2 good pieces of news for me! I like the idea of welding some pegs to the deck and mounting the wood to them leaving the suggested space. I think that will break up the look of her and match the wooden grab rails and other wood on the topside.

    Thanks again!

    Kevin
     
  7. FAST FRED
    Joined: Oct 2002
    Posts: 4,519
    Likes: 111, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1009
    Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big d

    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Sheet foam is probably better at insulating than what can be sprayed in. The problem is if its NOT sealed the warm moisture laden air will get behind the insulation and cause condensation , which will eventually be a hassle.

    I have had great sucess with sheet foam , cut to fit with a HARD pushin, and any gaps filled with simple home type spray foam.

    I would seal the panels as well as could be done , but leave weep holes for the condensation at the bottom of each section.

    All the Herreshoff boats were claimed to have exceptional life as the cielings were never run to the overhead, a vent space was always left.

    But that sure does make a steel boat hard to heat!!

    FAST FRED
     
  8. pengreg
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 52
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 40
    Location: South Africa

    pengreg Junior Member

    Hi Kevin, I wish you courage and success, your task is my task (see 35' Colin Childs Re-fit). I have found these books of great help: The steel hull - Roger McAfee, Steel away - Smith and Moir. If you are down to the bare bones I would definitely blast, hire a pro thier rigs are big - too big to buy for one project. I use labour with chipping hammers, a selection of angle grinders with heavy wire brushes, air hammer with needle descaler for tight spots.
     
  9. jerryniff
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 17
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Florianopolis, SC Brasil

    jerryniff Junior Member

    The inside of my 39 foot sailboat has been blasted and flame sprayed with zinc. My preference is spray in foam. However, sheet foam should work just fine if the steel underneath is flame sprayed, epoxy tarred or coated so that condensation will not move you in the same direction you just came from ................ rust under the insulation.
    If you can handle all the tools already mentioned then you can also run a flame spray gun. There was a metco type Y gun, older than the hills but I have one that works perfect, on ebay the other day There is normally a wire gun, like the type Y, listed. They go cheap and with just a small amount of study you will find that zinc flame spray is probably cheaper than paint.
    Gerald
     
  10. safewalrus
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 4,742
    Likes: 78, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 659
    Location: Cornwall, England

    safewalrus Ancient Marriner

    Kevin, hi; to answer your questions - no they don't and no you don't!

    Some form of toerail is useful but not essential! As long as your have something to prevent you going overboard at the end of a slide thats it! As Mike Johns suggests either weld lugs to the deck to attach the rail to or add an extra low guard rail - a storm rail as it were (to give it's proper name for the bottom rail - 6 to 8 inches off the deck to prevent people sliding under the guard rail above). the only trouble with that system is the fact that if you ship dirty water or have dirt on deck and ship water it runs down the whole side of the vessel to escape; makes an awful mess of your pristene topsides! A better system is to weld lugs opposite each other at regular distances (or two continious tracks - even better) bed your wood toe rail in flexible mastic and fasten down with well greased bolts! That way the toe rail (if I remember it's called a spurnwater?! or beading?) can be removed once a year for inspection/wire brushing/repainting and rebedding!

    As for the insulation, it certainly doesn't need to be fixed - it IS reccomended by some but... On my last steel boat (Roberts Spray 32) I bitumastic painted the inside of the hull and lined it with two inch 'Rockwool' slabs; the kind you line your loft with ashore - worked perfectly (and where did I get the idea from? It's actual commercial practice on a lot of Merchant ships to use this system both for ease of installation, ease of removal whe you need to get at the hull etc and it's cheaper)!

    Hope the above helps! Best of luck with the project

    the walrus
     
  11. bananabender
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 7
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 14
    Location: Australia

    bananabender Junior Member

    Cleaning rust

    Kevin,
    Hope the project is still moving forward without too much pain! As a steel boat owner and an old fertilizer chemist, a little suggestion to stop the rust popping up behind you ... check a serious fertilizer supplier and see if you can purchase a 20 litre (4 gall) drum of phosphoric acid. It's only moderately nasty but sensible precautions apply - keep out of eyes and off skin and good clothes etc. After sandblasting paint exposed steel with a 30-40% solution of the phos. acid and leave to dry overnight at least. Wipe clean with a wet sponge or wash and dry before painting with epoxy. With a bit of practice you will know when the surface is correctly "pickled" .. steel will be dark grey and will not rust even if left for a few days. It will also highlight any rust cells that sometimes still lurk in the bottom of deep pits as they will show up black. This system will also remove light rusting which will quickly appear on sandblasted surfaces prior to painting.

    One other suggestion while you're at it... check ALL limber holes and make sure they're equivalent to at least half of a 20mm circle, otherwise a few coats of paint and a bit of bilge fluff and no more drainage. Zincs protect the outside of the hull but trapped water can drill a hole from the inside very sneakily!

    Good luck with it all and I hope it has a happy ending for all concerned.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. hansp77
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 690
    Likes: 34, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 200
    Location: Melbourne Australia

    hansp77

    Being in the middle of restoring a marine ply boat, (albiet a MUCH SMALLER job than yours)
    and used to those passing comments,
    "big job mate"
    or
    "were'nt you working on that same spot this morning"
    etc etc,
    plus of course all the positive and inspirational comments,
    I would love to see some of your photos.
    As a steel boat is probably the way I want to go later in life, for that dream of cruising round the world, and as someone who would probably look for something just like what you have bought, I am interested in your project.
    From what I learnt in researching for my near purchase of an old debilitated Bollard 30 ft steel hull, rust holes and all, I was interested in that new sort of zinc paint, 95+% zinc, that acts as a sort of cold galvanising. I don't really have a link for you, and probably you don't even need it, as I am sure you have done more research than I, but I found
    http://www.metalboatsociety.com/forum.htm
    to be quite a helpfull resource. (they ask for payment for membership, but you can get a bit of free time on trial- enough to gather some info and come back here)
    Good luck (and no rust).
    Hans.
     
  13. globaldude
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 110
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Whangarei New Zealand

    globaldude court jester

    Kevin T, your'e a bloody hero -- of mine !.
    I know exactly all the hard & very dirty work you've been doing, I admire your determination and know that, given most human nature, you won't be getting much encouragement ,but most likely ??, whats the word ?, well " looks" that say; yeah right !, you'll never get that done & I'll believe it when I see it .
    I think too you must have a wonderfull woman behind you. The very best to you & yours, and I'd like to think we'd bump intop you one day on the high seas, us both having completed our dunting tasks [ namely building of our boats].
    I too would like to see some photo's. You are obviously a generous chap [ offering 50% off graphics ] not afraid of bloody hard work, and very polite .
    I think we're lucky to have such a medium to be able to ask questions and get great expert [ or otherwise ] opinion [ thanks Tpsteer & the likes ] and all from the comfort of home , eh !.
    Pete.
     
  14. globaldude
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 110
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Whangarei New Zealand

    globaldude court jester

    HA HA HA , "bump intop you one day" damm, I really must proof read my posts before I hit the post button.
     

  15. lazeyjack

    lazeyjack Guest

    I hate typing
    so here my number 0061754561210 built steel for years Now Alloy(see gallery)
    Look sandbalsting is not an amatuer thing, 250cuft min compressor pushing air and sand through 10mm(3/8) venturi nozzle at 100psi will give good profile, 12x4 foot plate in 12 mins So forget your toy, ok for lil areas inside
    I don't mond phoning you, like a yak, more personal than this.,
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.