Steel hull isolation: alternatives to foam?

[mydauphin]

After seeing the last episode of Mythbuster, I think am bubble wrapping my boat... Inside and outside. Floating, Insulation and soundproofing.

[Nick.K]

...And we have recently used Kingspan (rigid, foil covered phenolic foam, fire rated) as a replacement insulation under a steel deck where some areas of deck plate were changed and it wasn't practical to respray with foam. The panels were cut to fit exactly, joints sealed with aluminium tape. It looks very clean and was quick and not expensive. Thanks Mike..
Nick.

[brian eiland]

Has this product been mentioned before? I just found it on another forum discussion.

Mascoat Marine-DTM is a composite ceramic insulating coating that is exclusively designed for thermal insulating and anti condensation protection for the harsh marine environment.
http://www.mascoat.com/mascoat-marin...ing-paint.html

[brian eiland]

And here is another 'very interesting' product mentioned on that other forum as well.

Fagerdala Marine Systemsis a division of Fagerdala World Foams. FMS has a patented insulating yacht- and ship Hull System based on the application of a foam composite structure on an inner metal hull.

[brian eiland]

K1W1, i took these pictures of United Spirit two weeks ago. One of her KaMeWA jets was not in place, but otherwise she looked OK. This foam was added almost 20 years ago and I have just seen a minor crack about five years ago. It is pretty easy to repair from outside.

This boat was built in 1939 in 5 mm aluminium plates with rivets. The idea with applying foam outside on new constructions was to use robots for both the final shape and fairing. This shipyard have two ABB robots installed, but have not used them for this application. On older boats it is more man-hours, but not many more than putting tons of filler to sand down.
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/st...tml#post113184

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

Has this product been mentioned before? I just found it on another forum discussion.

Mascoat Marine-DTM is a composite ceramic insulating coating that is exclusively designed for thermal insulating and anti condensation protection for the harsh marine environment.
http://www.mascoat.com/mascoat-marin...ing-paint.html

Brian did you read my last post ?

The claims observations and subjective ‘tests’ of these marketers are precariously balanced between gullible customers and fair trading laws. In the site you linked they have overstepped the mark.

Click on “How it works” and there’s some technical sounding gobbledygook which devolves into the mire.

Here's an extract from that page;

Quote [ Traditional “batt” insulation works by creating a barrier that slows heat conduction through floors, walls and substrates. The “R-value” of the insulation determines how much it slows down the heat transfer, higher R-values represent better product insulation.
Rather than simply employing this type of conduction technology, Mascoat coatings also use reflective, low-emissivity and low-transmittance technology to improve insulating results.]

Lets reword that………“Insulation works this way” however rather than simply employing “INSULATION” the paint “ALSO” has low emissivity and Transmittance.

Any implication that it shares properties of batt insulation is simply fraud.

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

And here is another 'very interesting' product mentioned on that other forum as well.

Fagerdala Marine Systemsis a division of Fagerdala World Foams. FMS has a patented insulating yacht- and ship Hull System based on the application of a foam composite structure on an inner metal hull.

This is just a foam core composite panel which treats the aluminium hull as one skin. It's a possible external rescue method for worn out hulls. But the insulation is incidental and I'd also be very skeptical about it's suitability for steel hulls.
Usually on steel as a rescue remedy if you cant re-plate you are better using a direct epoxy glass laminate over the epoxy painted steel surface. In the past it was often a ferro-cement coating over bare sandblasted steel which worked surprisingly well on larger boats.

You'd never risk the collision damage, saturation and delamination probability of foam and glass over alloy rather than properly building the hull and insulating the inside.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by MikeJohns

Brian did you read my last post ?
BE: Okay I went back and read thru your posting....and thanks for that as I've forgotten a LOT of my college courses...ha
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The claims observations and subjective ‘tests’ of these marketers are precariously balanced between gullible customers and fair trading laws. In the site you linked they have overstepped the mark.

Click on “How it works” and there’s some technical sounding gobbledygook which devolves into the mire.
BE: Yes they do seem to try and 'baffel one with bull'
****************************************


Here's an extract from that page;
Quote [ Traditional “batt” insulation works by creating a barrier that slows heat conduction through floors, walls and substrates. The “R-value” of the insulation determines how much it slows down the heat transfer, higher R-values represent better product insulation.
BE: Okay nothing wrong with that statement...right?
*****************************************************

Rather than simply employing this type of conduction technology, Mascoat coatings also use reflective, low-emissivity and low-transmittance technology to improve insulating results.]
BE: Could they be claiming that the 'ceramic hollow balls' within their paint can in some applications be effective in reflective manners?? I've seen claims like this for outdoor house paints that make use of technology developed by NASA.??
*****************************************************

Lets reword that………“Insulation works this way” however rather than simply employing “INSULATION” the paint “ALSO” has low emissivity and Transmittance.
BE: And if you used one of their lighter colors (like white) then it could be claimed they have low emissivity??
**************************************************

It is apparent from the language used that they have no idea about thermodynamics or physics and even start confusing light units with thermodynamic units. Such as 'Transmittance' which not surprisingly it is low ( you cant see light through it), that's a perfectly legal claim but meaningless in this context. However any implication that it shares properties of batt insulation is simply fraud.
BE: Don't the hollow ceramic balls give it a better R value in conduction? Isn't that also one of NASA's claims?

**************************************************
I'm here to learn.

Seems they have quite a following in the shipping field...could all of their customers be duped?

[SamSam]

Originally Posted by MikeJohns

The claims observations and subjective ‘tests’ of these marketers are precariously balanced between gullible customers and fair trading laws. In the site you linked they have overstepped the mark.

Mascoat Marine-DTM insulating coating is a water-based, one-part coating comprised of air filled ceramic and silica beads held in suspension by an acrylic binder. It applies like paint and is maintenance-free, providing thermal insulating and anti-condensation capabilities for shipboard construction.

These advertising things kill me. An unpuffed description to me sounds like regular glass micro-bubble fillers in latex house paint.

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by brianeiland

...........Seems they have quite a following in the shipping field...could all of their customers be duped?

I wouldn't treat any of their claims seriously. I seriously doubt you could actually dupe that many ship owners.

Here's another excerpt this from the first page (with grammatical errors). I missed it the first time as I just jumped to the technical blurb:

quote [Currently, Mascoat Marine-DTM insulating coating is in use on over 1500 marine vessels from Alaska to Antarctica. This coating can replaced (sic) most blanket and foam insulation products, resulting in substantial reduction of weight and keeping the vessel within the new stringent marine codes and classifications.]

This is so blatently fraudulent that I’m surprised it can continue without serious trouble.

Also anyone who has been duped could easily sue the company for misleading advertising. The claims could be huge for a company that neglected to install insulation based on the information on the website.
In reality no-one with an undergrad thermodynamcs unit in their degree should fall for this.

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by SamSam

These advertising things kill me. An unpuffed description to me sounds like regular glass micro-bubble fillers in latex house paint.

A fool and their money are easily separated, although in this case the 'fooled', since there's enough smoke and mirrors to fool someone who doesn't remember their physics !

Ironically they have given a figure the dry paint thermal conductivty in their data sheet. That figure completely contradicts the claims. As for replacing normal insulation with magic paint you could legally argue I suppose that this coating at half a millimeter dry film thickness could replace a quarter millimeter EPS foam insulation sheet

For a real world insulation requirement if you tried to achieve it with the 'not so magic' paint will actually be hundreds of times heavier and thousands of times more costly to purchase and apply. Yet they say it will be lighter !

It's a classic case of the emperors clothes. The insulation factor of EPS is almost exactly twice that of the dry paint film figures (that they claim) in other words on the data they supply you need almost exactly double the paint thickness (dry film) to the foam thickness it replaced. Or say 200 coats of paint at a dry film of 0.5mm per coat to replace a 50 mm foam insulation panel..........


The addition of ceramic to paints was initially as a filler and toughener of epoxies, impact shatters the ceramic which absorbs the impact energy and doesn't crack the epoxy substrate bond. They can be surprisingly tough paints. Now we have moved into imagined thermal properties based loosely on some specialist NASA application ( edit.... apparently the re-entry tiles ). But the marketers imagined properties don't match the companies own data sheet for the product !

Manufacturers often adopting a 'cargo cult mentality', make it vaguely similar and then invoke a revered body such as NASA as part of the smoke and mirrors show. It’s apparent that they have no understanding whatsoever of the physics involved. The paint marketers and not their chemists are writing their blurb since there’s so much misinformation it’s not funny.

Also water based acrylic paints aren't very good coatings in marine environments and they degrade quickly. So the reflectivity will degrade rapidly as the surface matts. A much better overall result would be a smooth glossy polyurethane white paint.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

I was once moored off a shipyard in Auckland which built tugs. I asked the foreman about corten. He said they tried it and it was a waste of time and money, and caused more problems than it solved. He said you couldn't get corten in round , angle, pipe, in fact you couldn't get it in anything but plate , so anything which was not corten was sacrificial to the corten, including the welds. He said they got far more distortion than with mild steel , and it was considerably more expensive. They went back to mild steel ,and lived happily ever after.

I'm reading back thru this subject thread, and found this to be an interesting observation for anyone considering a steel hull,....which I am looking into for a couple of monohull designs. Thought I would make note of it for my own reference.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

Having lived aboard steel boats year round, mostly in BC, for the last 34 years, I have found no reason to insulate under an engine or in the bilges.
Having put carpet on my floor for the winter, my blges are dusty dry. Insulation in the bilges , or under an engine, is a big mistake . If there are problems under it. you have no way of knowing until it becomes a major problem. This is not the case with a well epoxied bilge, with no insulation.
On s a power boat, a drip pan may be adequate, but when sailing, and occasionally putting the rail under, the odds of oil escaping a drip pan are high. I build the hull under the engine into a drip pan. Any oil leaks preserve the steel well.

I'd have to agree with you there....why insulate for condensation or whatever in the bilges of a sailing vessel...or any vessel for that matter?

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Frosty

The trick is the bond of insulation of the foam to the steel, there should be no gap or was there in my situation.
Quality of application is therefore the key.

Frosty, what method/material did you find to be best for proper bonding to a steel hull in that hot, humid climate there in SE Asia

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by MikeJohns

.....The addition of ceramic to paints was initially as a filler and toughener of epoxies, impact shatters the ceramic which absorbs the impact energy and doesn't crack the epoxy substrate bond. They can be surprisingly tough paints.....

I found this to be interesting,.....but I might ask if its the 'shattering of the ceramic balls' or the 'roundness' of same that imparts this extra toughness?

...from this site:
http://spinoff.nasa.gov/spinoff2003/er_4.html
As a manufacturer and marketer of thermal solutions for residential, commercial, and industrial applications, Hy-Tech Thermal Solutions attributes its success to the high performance insulating ceramic microsphere originally developed from NASA thermal research at Ames Research Center. Shaped like a hollow ball so small that it looks as if it is a single grain of flour to the naked eye (slightly thicker than a human hair), the microsphere is noncombustible and fairly chemical-resistant, and has a wall thickness about 1/10 of the sphere diameter, a compressive strength of about 4,000 pounds per square inch, and a softening point of about 1,800 ºC.

Hy-Tech Thermal Solutions improved upon these properties by removing all of the gas inside and creating a vacuum. In effect, a “mini thermos bottle” is produced, acting as a barrier to heat by reflecting it away from the protected surface. When these microspheres are combined with other materials, they enhance the thermal resistance of those materials.

In bulk, the tiny ceramic “beads” have the appearance of a fine talcum powder. Their inert, nontoxic properties allow them to mix easily into any type of paint, coating, adhesive, masonry, or drywall finish. Additionally, their roundness causes them to behave like ball bearings, rolling upon each other, and letting the coatings flow smoothly. When applied like paint to a wall or roof, the microsphere coating shrinks down tight and creates a dense film of the vacuum cells. The resulting ceramic layer improves fire resistance, protects from ultraviolet rays, repels insects such as termites, and shields from the destructive forces of nature.

So this 'dense film of vacuum cells' will do nothing for our condensation problems?