Origami steel yacht construction

[troy2000]

I'm neither an engineer nor a professional boat builder. However, it seems to me that any time you add permanent stresses to a frame, you're making it more vulnerable than it would otherwise be.

Here's a study of two failures of pre-stressed steel bars in building construction that I think backs up my gut feeling. In both cases, the failure was caused by very minor surface damage.

http://books.google.com/books?id=IXO...frames&f=false

Of course, there are plenty of Brent Swain's boats out there, and I haven't heard of any serious problems with them. That seems to be pretty good empirical evidence that his methods, in the size range he designs for, are strong enough to do the job--whether it's because of his theories, or in spite of them.

If it's true that his designs are also easier for amateurs to understand and build, I'd say he's filling a useful niche in boatbuilding.

[tugboat]

Originally Posted by tazmann

Hello Tug
Another method would be skin first, simular to stitch and glue. The bottom, side, and transom panels are cut ahead of time then you would assemble in a 3 or 4 frome basket mold. starting with the bottom panels tack welding the center-keel section together then put the sides in and tack them up along the chines. You end up with the shell pretty quick then you add the longs, frames, bulkheads
Just another method
Tom

Thanks Tom- i came across what i think is this exact method on another website somewhere...if i remember correctly - there is a pretty substantial outer framing system to hold the panels while they are being welded?
I will pick up a copy of Brents book very soon and ill scoure it and let it sink in- and if it feels right ill start buying my steel.- i just revised my plans so i hope to scan in the revised profile drawing..do you have any info on this other method?..i would like to learn more about it.

[Brent Swain]

Originally Posted by whoosh

really what it all boils down to is this

origami, you end up with anything, no shape, no flowing lines, , no U shape, no entry, just a piece of pipe nipped in at the ends
A sailboat changes shape so rapidly near the forefoot underbody , so that is lofting and building you can see this m form changing every foot or so
Longtitudanly framed boats are so limited when it comes to this change in shape
You take a boat typical trad, as I build, as the Dutch and Germans build, which has a frame at say 400mm centres, each is different Each plate is shaped, stretched then formed
origami is for I suppose beginners, but you know even beginners can learn the RIGHT way We are not going to change , it is as easy and cost effective to build a beautiful yacht as it is to build a chine pig, and the chine pig, the origami, will be worth a 100 times less upon sale
There are many ways to build a yacht, but there are no shortcuts

This comment makes it crystal clear you have never seen any of my boats, and clearly don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

[Brent Swain]

One of the main problems people on a limited income have with getting out cruising is designers who assume that money and time are no object. The last thing they need is advice from someone who assumes they have super deep pockets.
IOR racing in the Baltic has nothing to do with long offshore cruising.

Yes, origami boats are entirely made up of sections of cones.

[Guest62110524]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

This comment makes it crystal clear you have never seen any of my boats, and clearly don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

its ok Brent, you may think and say whatever makes you happy Have a wonderfulday and read some more of my posts to you, where I stick up for you) stu

[tugboat]

Originally Posted by troy2000

Of course, there are plenty of Brent Swain's boats out there, and I haven't heard of any serious problems with them. That seems to be pretty good empirical evidence that his methods, in the size range he designs for, are strong enough to do the job--whether it's because of his theories, or in spite of them.

If it's true that his designs are also easier for amateurs to understand and build, I'd say he's filling a useful niche in boatbuilding.

Troy- how is that nice California weather down there?

ive read your other posts and always enjoyed your posts- even when i disagreed...I like your approach to offering your opinion.

Yes in some ways it does seem counter-intuitive to not use frames--but, in the examples you gave - and with all due respect- its hard to compare steel bars to complex structures like a steel hull- one is solid- the other is in ratio so much less dense that its almost not comparable. however-like you im not an engineer either. so- what do i know,
i do like the your statement about empirical evidence. this is what i look at - not theory.
this is why people can argue and argue on here till they are blue in the face and never get anywhere - because until its been proven time and time again through real life tests, then it wont be accepted. thus - the system of dialectics on here has failed to produce anything of value. empiricism is the true indicator something works. thats the foundation for engineering and science. not what joe bloggs "theory" is on boatbuiling. Yep other methods work too...so its all moot.

[dskira]

TugBoat read the post # 79.
Daniel

[dskira]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

Give a designer a steady stream of super rich clients ,and he quickly begins to design as if all boaters have such super deep pockets. It looks like you have designed mainly in fibreglas and composits, and your only steel designs are huge, flat sided powerboats, for very rich clients. You make no mention of how many decades you have spent maintaining your own steel boat.. You make no mention of having built your own small steel sailing craft with your own hands. The steel boats you have worked on all had someone else worrying about things like maintenance or what was going on behind the insulation. It simply wasn't your problem.
You have zero experience designing for anyone on a low budget, and are thus totally unqualified to do so.
One of the main problems people on a limited income have with getting out cruising is designers who assume that money and time are no object. The last thing they need is advice from someone who assumes they have super deep pockets.
IOR racing in the Baltic has nothing to do with long offshore cruising.

Daniel. Try find something more strenuous than cartoon drawing. Two doctors I built a boat for ( one a BC chief medial officer) said 80% of the health care budget is caused by inactivity, and smoking.

Yes, origami boats are entirely made up of sections of cones.

Interresting, Jeff deleted your post, and you write a new one with the same intention to difame me.
By the way if you look under thread wooden boat construction in this same forum you will see I am building a boat with pictures and nice comment of the forum, while you tell me to do something. You even don't know what I am doing but you come hard on me like if you had the epiphany of the century.
You even do not know how to navigate the forum.
You should stop being cought your pants down and do something intelligent to loose your arroguance.
You are the biggest lemon I ever knew,
Read all the posts before writing.
Daniel

[tazmann]

Hello Troy
One of the things I found out "the hard way" when youre building framless and add the longs after the hull is tacked together and jiged streight, if you just push the longs out enough to touch hull and tack you get them all tacked in and it looks pretty good but it has pulled the panels inward just a little. by the time there welded up they have pulled inward even more. ended up with concaved surfaces. To compesate for this when tacking them in you have go beyond just touchin actually bulge it out a bit with wedges and such, then after it's welded all looks good even addad a little bit of camber. In essents it's the same as welding them to a flat panel first. I dont know how this could be done without the stresses unless mabee you prebent the longs to match the hull curvature but even then I think you would still have some after welding ?
Tom

[tugboat]

Originally Posted by dskira

TugBoat read the post # 79.
Daniel

Daniel and Brent-- i consider both you guys as experts and even though its a intenet site and ive never met either of you-- in a weird way we are freinds with common bonds - so i can't take sides...i respect both for your accomplishments...and have learned from both of you--
Brent- you have done well in your area of expertise- Daniel- you have a hell of a lot of experience too. I think its like comparing apples and oranges(yeah i know its cliche)...

one loves steel, one loves wood.--its all good. try to get along if possible...
there is no sense in wasting time- no one can convince the other.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

Give a designer a steady stream of super rich clients ,and he quickly begins to design as if all boaters have such super deep pockets. It looks like you have designed mainly in fibreglas and composits, and your only steel designs are huge, flat sided powerboats, for very rich clients. You make no mention of how many decades you have spent maintaining your own steel boat.. You make no mention of having built your own small steel sailing craft with your own hands. The steel boats you have worked on all had someone else worrying about things like maintenance or what was going on behind the insulation. It simply wasn't your problem.
You have zero experience designing for anyone on a low budget, and are thus totally unqualified to do so.
One of the main problems people on a limited income have with getting out cruising is designers who assume that money and time are no object. The last thing they need is advice from someone who assumes they have super deep pockets.
IOR racing in the Baltic has nothing to do with long offshore cruising.

Daniel. Try find something more strenuous than cartoon drawing. Two doctors I built a boat for ( one a BC chief medial officer) said 80% of the health care budget is caused by inactivity, and smoking.

Yes, origami boats are entirely made up of sections of cones.

Brent, on what basis did you decide that Daniel's career has consisted mostly of producing toys for rich people? Did you take the time to actually read his post from beginning to end? I doubt the client for whom he designed a 250' bulk carrier ever said, "spare no expense, my good man; it's only money." I doubt the people he built fishing vessels ever said it, either.

Considering the body of work Daniel has produced in his lifetime, I really don't think you should be trying to talk down to him.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by tazmann

Hello Troy
One of the things I found out "the hard way" when youre building framless and add the longs after the hull is tacked together and jiged streight, if you just push the longs out enough to touch hull and tack you get them all tacked in and it looks pretty good but it has pulled the panels inward just a little. by the time there welded up they have pulled inward even more. ended up with concaved surfaces. To compesate for this when tacking them in you have go beyond just touchin actually bulge it out a bit with wedges and such, then after it's welded all looks good even addad a little bit of camber. In essents it's the same as welding them to a flat panel first. I dont know how this could be done without the stresses unless mabee you prebent the longs to match the hull curvature but even then I think you would still have some after welding ?
Tom

I'm quite familiar with the tendency of welds to curl and pull pieces together, although I've never welded anything as large as a boat. But unless I misunderstood Brent, he said that assembling frames to plates on the flat, then pulling them in, compresses the frames and adds strength.

I'm not so sure that stressing a frame member actually strengthens it. But although I was willing to throw my two cents in, I'm not going to stand my ground and argue it. I don't have enough experience in steel.

[M&M Ovenden]

I want to cruise (and have)
I want to live on my boat (and have)
I want to live on my boat in cold climates (and have, frozen hard in the ice)
I want a strong boat (no worries there)
I don't have loads of money (never will)
I like thinking KISS
I'll probably only ever own the boats I'll have built
.....

I seem to be the exact profile of the perfect Brent Swain client. I keep seeing my profile being used again and again to argue and diminish anything that isn't origami. I see my profile being used to put down some people who seem to me to be quite respectable.
With this profile it appears like Brent Swain feels I need to be saved. I don't.

Brent,
I think the consensus is that your boats under 40ft, which aim most of your target clientele are most likely not contestable. It would be interesting to toss a few numbers around to see what they have to say, as that's what modern man does (rather than hammer till proven strong). Amazingly a few numbers could convince most people to stop second guessing and eliminate any need for others to bark and bite.
Anyway, that's not exactly the point I want to get to, lets forget the numbers, I'll start again....

I get that most people are willing to consider most of your boats (around 36ft) as fine boats even thought they may not see them as the perfect boat per there own criteria. How come you always need to throw derogatory comments at everything that is not of your design or philosophy? Is it not possible that for a similar clientele as yours a non Brent Swain boat (or non origami) could be fine too? even though it may not meet your criteria?
I fit the profile you claim your boats are designed for and that's fine...I actually do. But beyond that there are some people without buckets of money, without loads of time and with the will to get sailing who find a way to do it otherwise than the Brent Swain way. Where does that put us? Are we the bad people too just because we want something a little different from what you have to offer?

Don't you see most of the polemic is not about your boats, but about your belligerent attitude. Its not about whether your boats are strong or not its about the irrelevance of your argumentation.

Crap, just wrote one other of those post with no learning value and that'll change nothing....


Mu

Originally Posted by M&M Ovenden

I want to cruise (and have)
I want to live on my boat (and have)
I want to live on my boat in cold climates (and have, frozen hard in the ice)
I want a strong boat (no worries there)
I don't have loads of money (never will)
I like thinking KISS
I'll probably only ever own the boats I'll have built
.....

I seem to be the exact profile of the perfect Brent Swain client. I keep seeing my profile being used again and again to argue and diminish anything that isn't origami. I see my profile being used to put down some people who seem to me to be quite respectable.
With this profile it appears like Brent Swain feels I need to be saved. I don't.

Brent,
I think the consensus is that your boats under 40ft, which aim most of your target clientele are most likely not contestable. It would be interesting to toss a few numbers around to see what they have to say, as that's what modern man does (rather than hammer till proven strong). Amazingly a few numbers could convince most people to stop second guessing and eliminate any need for others to bark and bite.
Anyway, that's not exactly the point I want to get to, lets forget the numbers, I'll start again....

I get that most people are willing to consider most of your boats (around 36ft) as fine boats even thought they may not see them as the perfect boat per there own criteria. How come you always need to throw derogatory comments at everything that is not of your design or philosophy? Is it not possible that for a similar clientele as yours a non Brent Swain boat (or non origami) could be fine too? even though it may not meet your criteria?
I fit the profile you claim your boats are designed for and that's fine...I actually do. But beyond that there are some people without buckets of money, without loads of time and with the will to get sailing who find a way to do it otherwise than the Brent Swain way. Where does that put us? Are we the bad people too just because we want something a little different from what you have to offer?

Don't you see most of the polemic is not about your boats, but about your belligerent attitude. Its not about whether your boats are strong or not its about the irrelevance of your argumentation.

Crap, just wrote one other of those post with no learning value and that'll change nothing....


Mu

Am I allowed to make it short?....................



..concur...


Regards
Richard

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by M&M Ovenden

Don't you see most of the polemic is not about your boats, but about your belligerent attitude. Its not about whether your boats are strong or not its about the irrelevance of your argumentation.

Crap, just wrote one other of those post with no learning value and that'll change nothing....


Mu

Don't worry about it. I did the same thing, back when Brent was mocking people who still insist on building boats out of 'dead vegetative material,' or some such phrase.

As you point out, the problem isn't with his boats. It's with his belligerent and contemptuous attitude towards anyone who won't fall at his feet and worship him as the One True Prophet of Boatbuilding.

I get tired of watching him beat up not only on folks who build in anything besides steel, but also on anyone who wants to build in steel using anything besides his origami-style methods.

Regarding steel construction in general, I'll say this: there's no doubt it's practical. It can turn out strong, long-lasting boats, and some of them are beauties. But I spent a good part of my spare time today reading the building diary of the two gals in Canada who built to a Bruce Roberts design. Towards the end, I was struck by how much time and material they spent insulating the interior from the steel, then hiding it. They used up several thousand dollars worth of insulating foam; then they buried it and the steel behind layers of fiberglass paneling and wood, to make it feel comfortable and homey. And one of the proud statements made after they finished the cockpit area was something along the lines of, 'you can't even tell it's steel.'

Now granted, I'm not a builder of fine yachts. But when I get done with the sharpie I'm planning, I'm not going to have to hide or insulate the wood it's made from, to make it look and feel comfortable.