Origami steel yacht construction

[goodwilltoall]

Think building in wood is more affordable, but think that anyone building in steel would find Brent Swain techniques excellent for strength, cost, and time.
Have only known about Brent for about a year and did order his book.

As far as I can tell, Brent seems to be a pioneer in origami construction in North America, therefore things that apply to transverse frame construction and thier associated scantling rules can not be applied the same way.

Origami is more of a monoque form of construction which takes into account shape and captures compression and tension stresses that greatly improve overall strength. Anyone that is familiar with monoque construction knows that transverse frames play a minor role in overall strength and sometimes the goal is to completely eliminate them.

I see naval architects, boat designers, builders, engineers, and others lambasting Brent, but brent has:
. designed a reputable boat with good qualities.
. engineered it to make it strong and affordable.
. built his own boat.
. provisioned required supplies.
. is outhere sailing and proving the design.
. has others that have used his design with good results.
He has combined all this in a package which is actual proof of it feasability.

I do see Brent as unorthdox which causes him to be offensive to some of you, but those qualities also contribute to his ideas of boatbuilding & sailing which have made him succesful.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by goodwilltoall

Think building in wood is more affordable, but think that anyone building in steel would find Brent Swain techniques excellent for strength, cost, and time.
Have only known about Brent for about a year and did order his book.

As far as I can tell, Brent seems to be a pioneer in origami construction in North America, therefore things that apply to transverse frame construction and thier associated scantling rules can not be applied the same way.

Origami is more of a monoque form of construction which takes into account shape and captures compression and tension stresses that greatly improve overall strength. Anyone that is familiar with monoque construction knows that transverse frames play a minor role in overall strength and sometimes the goal is to completely eliminate them.

I see naval architects, boat designers, builders, engineers, and others lambasting Brent, but brent has:
. designed a reputable boat with good qualities.
. engineered it to make it strong and affordable.
. built his own boat.
. provisioned required supplies.
. is outhere sailing and proving the design.
. has others that have used his design with good results.
He has combined all this in a package which is actual proof of it feasability.

I do see Brent as unorthdox which causes him to be offensive to some of you, but those qualities also contribute to his ideas of boatbuilding & sailing which have made him succesful.

Brent may have successfully designed and built some boats, but he certainly didn't 'engineer' them.

Trust me: it isn't his lack of orthodoxy which makes Brent offensive. It's his arrogance based on ignorance, combined with his kamikaze attacks on anyone who dares question anything he says or does. He seems to take the fact that his boats float as some sort of proof that anyone who designs or builds anything else is an utter fool.

Have you ever read any of his posts online where he mocks people who build boats out of 'dead vegetative material,' instead of steel? You can't get much more dogmatic and obnoxious than that....

[junk2lee]

Well, I have read back to the beginning of the thread. There was a very normal conversation in the beginning, until one of the notorious badmouthers in this forum jumped in and pissed off everyone. It is not even kindergarten, it is a chicken run.

And I honestly would not care even if Apex1 would be the best NA in the world (but in that case he would spend his time in better things than pissing off everyone, and boasting it in other threads in the forum), this kind of conduct is not acceptable.

exactly so,Magwas!...at post#42

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by junk2lee

exactly so,Magwas!...at post#42

No. Apex's comment was unnecessary, true. But the thread fell apart at post #44, when tugboat answered Apex with a complete diatribe:

hey apex- put your balls where your mouth is- lets see you draw one up! if you have the guts? but my guess you are so busy building that 1500 tons of yachts every day that you dont have time--but you do have time to come on here and insult people ..so lets have it! show us!! or f- off! lets see your brilliance with a design or go do another bong or whatever it is you do and stop trying to cause shite. what is it you do anyway with that big 1500 tons of yacht building you do??.sweep the floors for the actual builders and designers??? you have yet to say anything positive or productive to any posts iove read by you on here so every time you say something idiotic as you most certainly will--im going to nail your "a.s.s." with a comeback so bring it on anytime you like...

waiting for your "better" design anytime now.

That's a rather frenzied, irrational response... particularly coming from someone who wants to build a frameless tugboat.

A simple look at Apex's profile shows a long list of positive, informative threads and posts; certainly more than tugboat has produced.

[junk2lee]

yes,Tugboat should not have flamed
It seemed that Tugboat and Apex had some history elsewhere.I just thought Tugboat was just asking for an opinion and got interrupted....

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by junk2lee

yes,Tugboat should not have flamed
It seemed that Tugboat and Apex had some history elsewhere.But while you see it as the irrational and frenzied response of a true believer , I just thought Tugboat was just asking for an opinion and got interrupted....

I edited out that comment about true believers, because I decided I was being a bit trollish. Apparently you were too quick for me... you caught it anyway.

[goodwilltoall]

Pound for pound wood is one of the strongest materials know to man, with many good qualities of sound deading, floatation, insulation, bending, affordability, asthetics, etc. Brent is ignorant to attack wood like that. Wood does lack resistance to point loads and fire, but it can be improved upon in those qualities to limit its susceptence. Since this is a metal boat building thread, cant talk to much about wood

[goodwilltoall]

Whoops, I think is sent my post somewhere else. To requote, wood has excellent qualities in affordability, strength, insulation, floatation, asthetics, etc..., its shortcomings are resistance to point loads and fire.

Those short comings can be partially remied, Brent should not be so ignorant.

Wood vs. metal. Wood wins in cost effectiveness. I know Brent will say "how cost effective is it if it hits a reef". Well there are things that can always go wrong, you try to minimize those with preparedness and knowledge, furthermore if wood because of it cost effectiviness can get someone cruising sooner so be it. In situations like hitting a reef you can only ask God to be merciful upon you.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by goodwilltoall

Whoops, I think is sent my post somewhere else. To requote, wood has excellent qualities in affordability, strength, insulation, floatation, asthetics, etc..., its shortcomings are resistance to point loads and fire.

Those short comings can be partially remied, Brent should not be so ignorant.

Wood vs. metal. Wood wins in cost effectiveness. I know Brent will say "how cost effective is it if it hits a reef". Well there are things that can always go wrong, you try to minimize those with preparedness and knowledge, furthermore if wood because of it cost effectiviness can get someone cruising sooner so be it. In situations like hitting a reef you can only ask God to be merciful upon you.

I just spent a few minutes searching for that quote by Brent about vegetative material. I haven't found it yet; apparently I've screwed up the exact phrase he used. But here's a direct quote from him on the same subject:

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

...Yes, wood is the poorest boatbuilding material ever used, with the greatest number of liabilities, the greatest complexity and most labour intensive construction ever used, and the flimsiest.

A cape Horn vessel

Post #99.

edit: ah, here we go, found the post I was thinking of. I did have the wording wrong. And I couldn't find it searching for 'vegetation,' because he mispelled the word.

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

Wood ( dead vegitation) is the flimsyist, most complex, most labour intensive material ever used in boatbuilding and has the most liabilities of any material. It is the most piss poor material ever used to build a boat, period. It was only used because it was the only option, given the technolgy of it's time. As old sealing Schooner designer Frank Ferdett told me once "It doesn't make any sense to build a boat out of wood anymore, now that so much better materials are available."
It makes as much sense as using a red river cart to go grocery shopping ,or travel across the country in ,today.
For all it's flaws, ferro cement is a far better cruising boat material than wood ever was.
A person with a lifetime of wood or ferro building experience and no steel experience could still build a far better boat out of steel, with far less trouble than ferro, and light years less trouble than wood, and far less expensive

We love Ferro cement but beware !

Post #112

Also Post #142 from the same thread:

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

You are right. Wood is a great material for a boat that spends little time in the water. That is one way to reduce maintenance on a wooden boat....

[junk2lee]

I edited out that comment about true believers, because I decided I was being a bit trollish. Apparently you were too quick for me... you caught it anyway.

oops,eh? I'm finding that I have to be TOO quick to keep up .
Yes...The transverse frame thread has some of the history and I can see more of what's going on-an interesting thread.

I had a wooden boat when Brent laid the vegetable matter rap on me ,I just laugh.I love woodboats!

[goodwilltoall]

Troy2000,

Technically wood is dead vegetation. Keeping it dead and dry keeps it from rotting.

Now Brent has a point that if you are going to have a thrashing, bashing, crashing contest with steel origamiboat vs. woodenboat, steel origamiboat probably wins everytime. But those are not the the parameters we are limited to designing and building boats.

Now going back to steel origami boatbuilding, who else other than Brent Swain is a bigger proponent of it? It is a technology not well developed in North America. Who else has more designed floating boats using this technique other than Brent Swain? You have to say he is probably more qualified to speak on this matter than most people. First hand experience designing, engineering (eventhough he's not learned as an engineer, the principles he applies are engineering), building, and sailing counts for more
than all the degrees you can have.

Wyand,

If recalling correctly in post 338, pictures of your Van de Stadt 34 show no tranverse frames, mention is made of cabinets and builtins to add strength but basically its an origamiboat. So what is the reason for the arguement between you and Brent? Having read Brents book, he states that grinding is not necessary other than for asthetics on the inside. Sure he is not upto the same craftsmanship standards as you, but if the welds are shown to be good, no harm will come of it.

Correct me if wrong, but the Van de Stadt 34 is 4mm steel and the Brent36 is 3/8" which is 9mm. Using basically the same construction method for both boats Brents boat would be heavier requiring bigger sails, engine, etc. but on the other hand would also be more robust.

Brent is also correct in not posting drawings of the lines of his boats. If that is part of the way he makes a living that would be crazy to post. Most designers follow the same logic.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by goodwilltoall

Troy2000,

Technically wood is dead vegetation. Keeping it dead and dry keeps it from rotting.

Now Brent has a point that if you are going to have a thrashing, bashing, crashing contest with steel origamiboat vs. woodenboat, steel origamiboat probably wins everytime. But those are not the the parameters we are limited to designing and building boats.

Now going back to steel origami boatbuilding, who else other than Brent Swain is a bigger proponent of it? It is a technology not well developed in North America. Who else has more designed floating boats using this technique other than Brent Swain? You have to say he is probably more qualified to speak on this matter than most people. First hand experience designing, engineering (eventhough he's not learned as an engineer, the principles he applies are engineering), building, and sailing counts for more
than all the degrees you can have.

Wyand,

If recalling correctly in post 338, pictures of your Van de Stadt 34 show no tranverse frames, mention is made of cabinets and builtins to add strength but basically its an origamiboat. So what is the reason for the arguement between you and Brent? Having read Brents book, he states that grinding is not necessary other than for asthetics on the inside. Sure he is not upto the same craftsmanship standards as you, but if the welds are shown to be good, no harm will come of it.

Correct me if wrong, but the Van de Stadt 34 is 4mm steel and the Brent36 is 3/8" which is 9mm. Using basically the same construction method for both boats Brents boat would be heavier requiring bigger sails, engine, etc. but on the other hand would also be more robust.

Brent is also correct in not posting drawings of the lines of his boats. If that is part of the way he makes a living that would be crazy to post. Most designers follow the same logic.

There are very few designers who will not post at least basic study plans of their boats, from which you can gather a lot of information about the hull shape--even without detailed lines. Is Brent willing to do that in these forums?

As a contractor, I was never shy about providing elevations and dimensioned floor plans for any house I designed, even though theoretically that's all the information a professional would need to duplicate it; it sold jobs for me. And anyone who would rip off my design had no intention of paying for it to begin with...so it cost me nothing.

[Tad]

Here are the drawings.....

Brent Swain Origami boat drawings

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by Tad

Here are the drawings.....

Brent Swain Origami boat drawings

Not enough information or clarity in those drawings (as posted, anyway) to draw any conclusions at all from, I'm afraid. But thanks for the link.

[goodwilltoall]

Troy2000,

Sometimes people do have a vested interest in keeping thier ideas inaccessible unless they are compensated for it, furthermore if Brent does decide to post lines drawings whats to stop others to say "oh theres not enough deadrise, your buttocklines are to flat, your forefoot is too deep, etc." That would just open up another controversy.

There is an origamiboat pattern in Brent's book not sure if its accurate. The book is about $20.00, someone can make a pattern of it and cut it in the middle to make a cross section view. Maybe that would help.

There's been to much name calling, we should get back to the merit's of origamiboats. Brent has many people sailing his designs and there's a yahoo group that discusses them and they appear to be a successful design and they are economical if someone wants a steel boat.

Brent has his ways which can be disagreeable, but there's knowledge I gained from him to give confidence with plans to build a boat that made me think "hey, this can be done and it dont need to cost a fortune." Some example are HDPE bow rollers, manual winch, galvanized rigging, buying sails,
and roller reefer to name a few. All which you can build yourself to make it affordable and get out of a ditch with "how can I afford this" and into a boat.

With all the publicity of boating magazines, high priced marine stores, and glossy plastic boats people have to begin to think outside those confines.
As a proverb goes " it aint so much what you know, but what you think you know that just aint so"