Origami steel yacht construction

[MikeJohns]

To quote an prior post on the subject

Originally Posted by LyndonJ

Classification societies amd regulatory bodies are attacked by Brent for not accepting his structural arguments.
I can never understand why he made it up himself and never actually consulted an engineer to check his reasoning.

But an honest open approach shouldn't involve retreating into rhetoric.
He needs to accept that his small boats are ok and that we all applaud his motivation and drive and achievements.
But I think he will walk a path of self destruction if he keeps beating his head on the floor. Stubborn drive can make great achievements but that same stubborness will destroy as well.

If he just said now "oops I appear to be wrong on that point, lets add a few transverse frames on larger versions " he'd keep his mojo.

Brent is his own worst enemy. However Lyndon's post was made before his 'plans' were circulated by concerned clients for comment. Unfortunately they showed some very poor detail that should be corrected for the sake of vessel integrity.

For a few hundred dollars and a few more days work the 36 footers could be made much more robust and be dragged into class compliance. That has happened with some of the BS origami boats.

Brent's problem is that he cannot and will not accept anything remotely detrimental to the entrenched position in his book.

The level of his personal attacks against polite posters to try and deflect a technical argument that puts him in a poor light are now 'on file'.

Brent doesn't need moral support he needs technical support.

Re-read again that quote above, he was never being shabbily treated but always drove the discussion into the mire himself.

Originally Posted by junk2lee

..........Without quoting again,people have variously intimated that the boats he mention do not exist,were 21 feet,never on a beach,and so on............

Really ? Or is that Brents distortion? For example who cares if it's 21 or 25 feet the argument still stands that it's a much smaller boat. Brent doesn't point out that it's 4 feet out, he just starts calling the poster a 'Liar'.

The boat was on a beach, no-one questioned that fact. It's Brent's interpretation of events and resulting conclusions that's at question. To use a beaching as justification of a poor design detail is poor logic.

It's Brent that then says " so you say it was never on the beach" and you buy that line. For the rest of us we are all a little wary of Brent's distortions now.

You also misunderstand the role of class societies and regulatory bodies in construction guides. They exist to set a minimum safe level of structural design considering factors which most non engineers are blissfully unaware ( Brent fits this category perfectly ). You can deviate and even discard the rules if you can show by your own analysis that it's robust, that is you calculate the stresses, and fully consider the criteria for strength fatigue and buckling.
Brent deviates from the rules and claimed that his design was not only stronger but much cheaper and easier to build than what he called 'dinosaur' methods. But he is wrong on every count.

The hull has a big wow factor but it takes just as long to launch the boat.
It's weaker than a framed hull becasue Brent misunderstood the mechanics
Its just as expensive to build ( by a few hundred dollars) as a properly framed version.
Brent has an appalling understanding of steel structures.

All these points have been addressed in full in several threads on this forum, which you can read for yourself.

[junk2lee]

(Per#437)Well,I have been reading previous ones but I took some of the details differently.We will have to agree to disagree.As to what I "misunderstand" and "buy" that is supposition on your part.I run into that a lot,herein.
onward

junk2lee, how do you defend a man who derides those who actually do the all-important final welding on his boats as being of lesser intelligence than he is, and mocks them for actually working for a living?

I honestly don't think Brent meant it thataway.I certainly don't agree if he did. I can hope by your later post that I am not yet tarred as an "Anti-Welder" as I know a few.
Brent can defend himself per steel boats - I am still interested in the Transverse frame argument.Brent's boats are very flexible per accomodation plans...

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by junk2lee

(Per#437)Well,I have been reading previous ones but I took some of the details differently.We will have to agree to disagree.As to what I "misunderstand" and "buy" that is supposition on your part.I run into that a lot,herein.
onward


I honestly don't think Brent meant it thataway.I certainly don't agree if he did. I can hope by your later post that I am not yet tarred as an "Anti-Welder" as I know a few.
Brent can defend himself per steel boats - I am still interested in the Transverse frame argument.Brent's boats are very flexible per accomodation plans...

"Anyone I've worked for can tell you I always refuse to do the final welding. Lesser intelligence people can be hired for less than I...."

"I want to thank you all for discouraging the dull witted, ultra conservative ,gulible , not so bright from considering my boats. It saves me from having to deal with them.
"I can liv ewithout them . There are enough intellignet, more practical people out there to provide all the work I want to do , ( a month a year) which will dwindle as full pension time approaches."

"Having worked a month a year , the rest full time playtime, since my mid 20's, why would I envy someone who worked his whole life?
Sure wish I was in that traffic lineup, instead of laying on this white sand beach?"

"Welders like to put themselves on a pedestal, by making welding seem a lot more difficult and tricky than it really is. That is snake oil salesmanship."

"Do you know what they call a fitter who grinds everything? A slow fitter."

"Youd take years to do a couple of weeks work"

"I've seen people waste a huge amount of time trying to keep a job looking pretty while under construction. It's only the finished product which counts."

The only thing more worrisome than Brent's attitude towards work in general (that it's for people not as smart as him) is his contempt for craftsmanship in particular. I don't feel like looking for them, but he's taken multiple shots in this thread at certified shipyard welders--as though their ability to do precise work exactly per the plans is some sort of perversion, or a deliberate ploy to milk their jobs.

The truth is that Brent wouldn't last five minutes on a job of that sort, judging by the samples of his work I've seen here.

I was a general building contractor for years, and I saw a lot of quick-and-dirty, gitterdone cowboys who didn't sweat the details as long as the job got done in a hurry. As a matter of fact, a fair amount of my living came from cleaning up their messes.

And I'm still wondering where he found the time to become the best detail fabricator one of his bosses had ever seen, and spend years as a skilled brake press operator, given that he also claims to have worked only one month a year since his mid-twenties.

[welder/fitter]

junk2lee
Well, there are only three people I have met, over the years, whom made a special point of discussing their dislike of Brent's winch design with me. Of those three, two have known Brent for 25 years, or so. I believe that you are probably one of those two. Whether so, or not, you know - better than I do, in fact - about the two boats you posted photos of, about Ron Pearson, etc., etc. . You know, as well, of the true condition of the boat which was the subject of Alex's video. I have no idea of why you have a deep-seeded fear of identifying yourself, here, but it is really not of concern to me, though it won't help with your credibility, as you're basically a question mark.

If you have taken the time to read the various threads, you know that people have tried to reason with Brent, and have become tired of his abrasiveness, anecdotal evidence, and misleading statements. You know that, of his detractors, there are those who speak honestly about their own experiences & observations of Brent's boats and those whom have far more knowledge & experience than Brent in marine vessel design, still others, obviously, greater skill in construction. If Brent wishes to push his design & construction method on public forums, he - and you - must accept that these will be questioned. If, as a result of Brent being questioned, he becomes nasty and a bully, or manipulates another poster's comments to attempt character assassination of that person, you had better believe that he will get it back, in spades. If he criticises designers, engineers, builders, welders, anyone, he deserves no special allowances in response.

For god's sake, man, on another forum he is playing the knowledgeable welding mentor, advising someone that the "13" in 6013 represents the rod's freeze/flow rate. I suppose that you could twist the definition of the "3" to (among other characteristics) give reason for why it flows more than 6010. But the truth is that he is wrong, doesn't have the knowledge to be giving such advice, nor would be allowed to do so without being challenged on such erroneous statements, in this forum. People that are of greatest value, here, are those whom do, or have, worked in areas related to the discussions. The only reason that many of us bother to even address Brent's posts is that they do not want to see a person who is new to boat building and/or design be mislead or be left with the impression that builders do this level of shoddy work and that the average designer is really that ignorant.

This is not Brent's world that we live in, this is our world that he lives in.

Mike

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by junk2lee

.........As to what I "misunderstand" ...that is supposition on your part.I run into that a lot,herein....

This is the misunderstanding, regarding the role of class rules/regulations from your own words :

Originally Posted by junk2lee

...If the Perfect Ship or Boat has already been designed by regulation,well! everybody else might as well go home and die.Design Entropy has arrived.There's nothing more to do.No ship shall ever sink ever again.Hubris rules.

Nothing to do with hubris!

Rules simply addresses the nitty gritty of stability and strength. The loads and the structure to carry those loads. Rules consider curvature , frameless design, the works. There's nothing unique in Brent's designs except for the nature of the pull together shape. The rest is standard boat building and mechanics. But it's standard mechanics that Brent got totally wrong when assessing the strength of his supporting framework. I'm happy to go over the engineering with you , or point to the posts where this has been done.

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by welder/fitter

.....

This is not Brent's world that we live in, this is our world that he lives in.

Mike

Bingo!

Brent is in a world of his own. Some other people particularly the Origami cultural group also live partly in Brent's world. Having accepted his reasoning and lacking the knowledge to properly assess his arguments they find it threatening to have to re-adjust their reality. None of the people ever supporting Brent have any formal training or understanding of the technical issues. Their support is always misguided becasue he's a friend or they are an acolyte.

Brent's message so often discussing structures has been believe me or be damned as a fool. In response he's been treated surprisingly fairly.

[junk2lee]

per #440
Man of mystery,that'd be me.Is my Secret Identity now revealed?

I don't know the "true" condition of Alex's boat but if he invites me to go out in her for a daysail sometime,I won't consult an engineer first.

And I don't have "deep-seeded" ( a nice turn on the "deep-seated" I use,by the way) fear of identifying myself.

If you knew Brent personally you might have some context that would mitigate your censure.

Thanks for the post(LaryLarisky) with the aircraft carrier.Ridiculous,unfair but well-timed and very funny.

and just posted

Rules simply addresses the nitty gritty of stability and strength. The loads and the structure to carry those loads. Rules consider curvature , frameless design, the works. There's nothing unique in Brent's designs except for the nature of the pull together shape. The rest is standard boat building and mechanics. But it's standard mechanics that Brent got totally wrong when assessing the strength of his supporting framework. I'm happy to go over the engineering with you , or point to the posts where this has been done.

Yes,I DO have some questions that might be pertinent-thanks for the offer,sir.I will have to return later

[peter radclyffe]

Originally Posted by troy2000

junk2lee, how do you defend a man who derides those who actually do the all-important final welding on his boats as being of lesser intelligence than he is, and mocks them for actually working for a living?

That's a clear window into his soul and his character, and I'm not impressed with what I see. The mark of a con man is his conviction that work is for suckers who aren't as smart as he is.

Judging by his posts in this thread, Brent's pride is based more on his ability to avoid working, than it is on the quality of his work. I wouldn't touch anything created by a man with an attitude like that--not a boat, not a house, not even a wedding cake.

thank you Troy

[welder/fitter]

Originally Posted by junk2lee

I don't know the "true" condition of Alex's boat but if he invites me to go out in her for a daysail sometime,I won't consult an engineer first.

Alex doesn't have that boat, so I accept that you're not who I thought you were. Brent called me all kinds of names, including being a liar, over the steelwork on that boat, so, when he does the same to others, I'm ready to respond with those quotes. "Lying like a mountie" is an old standard of Brent's, as I'm sure you know. Trust me on this; if Brent was to turn over a new leaf & be decent toward people, I'd be one of the first to respond in kind. But he won't and those quotes are simply his own statements turned back on the latest version he has for each story. Don't like it? Tough.
Mike

[magwas]

Originally Posted by troy2000

I think junk2lee most likely means well, and honestly believes we're being unfair. But I doubt he's paid as much attention to the things Brent said as he has to the first incredulous, then impatient, then increasingly irate and hostile responses.

Brent is reaping what he's sown. He's spent a lot of time mocking genuinely professional designers, builders and craftsmen, and it should be no surprise that people are to the point where they're looking around for a virtual piece of rope....

Well, I have read back to the beginning of the thread. There was a very normal conversation in the beginning, until one of the notorious badmouthers in this forum jumped in and pissed off everyone. It is not even kindergarten, it is a chicken run.

And I honestly would not care even if Apex1 would be the best NA in the world (but in that case he would spend his time in better things than pissing off everyone, and boasting it in other threads in the forum), this kind of conduct is not acceptable.

So it is not Brent who started the mockery.

This is how I see the situation:

BS boats are nice and extremely sturdy. They might not designed to any scantling rules, and it might be true that BS does not fully understand how his boats are so resistant mechanically. But they have a proven record, and I would be very surprised if mechanical analysis of a 36ft brent boat would find any serios flaw.

One argument against BS boats is that they would not scale up. But honestly who cares when Brent builds only up to some 36 ft? And there are bigger boats with the same building method but structurally engineered. Moreover, I have a gut feeling that even a BS 60 footer could be structurally strong at the end. You create the interior with all the bulkheads and storage cabinets, and of course you would make them from steel, because you are building a steel boat. This would give plenty of transverse support to the boat.

Another argument is the sloppy workmanship, especially with welding. Well, welding is a incredible method to stick pieces of metal together. It is so strong that a lot of mistakes are forgiven. To make the weld weaker than the plates you need an even more bad welder than me (and it would be very hard. And it is very easy to make it watertight.
This is one of the strength of origami: the building method itself is forgiving, so it can be done fast and with few quality control. So Brent might or might not do excellent steelwork, it does not really affect the quality of his boats.

Actually one argument is interesting about this whole thread, and this is the one about structural mechanics of big boats, especially with respect to buckling. What I see that both parties say valid arguments. With big flat plates buckling is a failure mode one should seriously consider. On the other hand we are talking about a structure of longitudinally pre-bent plates supporting each other transversely. The bend does not only means that we have an arch, but also means a well defined initial bending force (which might decrease with time, I don't know metallurgy much). So the question is: to what extent bending and chines prevent buckling, and is it enough with a 60 footer where bend radii are greater and chines are more far away?

And this is the question which can only be decided with structural analysis, which Brent is refusing.

[TeddyDiver]

My remarks Green

Originally Posted by magwas

One argument against BS boats is that they would not scale up. But honestly who cares when Brent builds only up to some 36 ft? And there are bigger boats with the same building method but structurally engineered. Moreover, I have a gut feeling that even a BS 60 footer could be structurally strong at the end. You create the interior with all the bulkheads and storage cabinets, and of course you would make them from steel, because you are building a steel boat. This would give plenty of transverse support to the boat.
One major prob is that there's no guideline how many bulkheads and what's the proper distance btw them. Brent claims it doesn't need any

Another argument is the sloppy workmanship, especially with welding. Well, welding is a incredible method to stick pieces of metal together. It is so strong that a lot of mistakes are forgiven.
This is one of the strength of origami: the building method itself is forgiving, so it can be done fast and with few quality control. So Brent might or might not do excellent steelwork, it does not really affect the quality of his boats.
Nevertheless he charges more than more than is capable of doing
With big flat plates buckling is a failure mode one should seriously consider. On the other hand we are talking about a structure of longitudinally pre-bent plates supporting each other transversely. The bend does not only means that we have an arch, but also means a well defined initial bending force (which might decrease with time, I don't know metallurgy much). So the question is: to what extent bending and chines prevent buckling, and is it enough with a 60 footer where bend radii are greater and chines are more far away?
bending in one direction doesn't..

And this is the question which can only be decided with structural analysis, which Brent is refusing.
Exactly

[Wynand N]

Originally Posted by magwas

Another argument is the sloppy workmanship, especially with welding.

Well, welding is a incredible method to stick pieces of metal together. It is so strong that a lot of mistakes are forgiven. To make the weld weaker than the plates you need an even more bad welder than me (and it would be very hard....

Time for a reality check. A steelboat is only as strong as its welding, moreso if it is frameless.
Unless a proper X ray quality procedure weld was done, the welding would always be weaker than the plate.

Originally Posted by magwas

So Brent might or might not do excellent steelwork, it does not really affect the quality of his boats.

Now this is a paradox if you are to believed. In the real world excellent = quality = excellence

[welder/fitter]

Originally Posted by magwas

So it is not Brent who started the mockery.

One argument against BS boats is that they would not scale up. But honestly who cares when Brent builds only up to some 36 ft? And there are bigger boats with the same building method but structurally engineered. Moreover, I have a gut feeling that even a BS 60 footer could be structurally strong at the end. You create the interior with all the bulkheads and storage cabinets, and of course you would make them from steel, because you are building a steel boat. This would give plenty of transverse support to the boat.

Another argument is the sloppy workmanship, especially with welding. Well, welding is a incredible method to stick pieces of metal together. It is so strong that a lot of mistakes are forgiven. To make the weld weaker than the plates you need an even more bad welder than me (and it would be very hard. And it is very easy to make it watertight.
This is one of the strength of origami: the building method itself is forgiving, so it can be done fast and with few quality control. So Brent might or might not do excellent steelwork, it does not really affect the quality of his boats.

magwas,
Though this thread was initially started several years ago, 2004, if I remember correctly(haven't gone back to check), the posts for 2010 were the result of the transverse frames thread. In that thread, if you read Brent's initial post, you will note that he brought his sales routine of no transverse frames being a better alternative. He then says words to the effect that one could use the same concept to build a much larger boat. "Mike Johns", "Adhoc", Lyndon", etc., tried to show him that he was incorrect in certain assumptions. But, as is typical, Brent began to respond with insults, many of a personal nature. This is nothing new, on any forums Brent talks about boats, you will read these same silly comments, over and over again. Some of us become tired of his rhetoric and respond at the same level. It is difficult to maintain one's composure when we've heard the same routine for so many years.

Your thoughts of using steel for bulkheads, etc., would cause these 30-something foot boats, not just Brent's, to sit too low in the water, even sink. the weight is just too much.

The welding - welded steel is not the miracle material that you seem to think it is. Believe me, there is no bigger fan than I, but the fabricating and welding of boats is important and, yes, it does matter. If Brent were just some guy building his own boat, I'd say, "Who cares, let him take the risk.", but he is giving foolish advice which someone who doesn't know better may follow - many have - which is dangerous.

The very experienced builders and designers on this site give their valuable time to ensure that others know what best practices are, so that they can build safe, top quality boats. We could argue all day about what level of quality is acceptable, but, as it is more prudent to build to the best quality one can, why would someone be tolerated for suggesting that "half-ass" work is all that is necessary? The more flaws, the more unknowns in the final product.

Because I've never seen you weld, I don't know what you consider to be a bad welder, in referring to yourself. The photos from the video that show Brent's welds - I guarantee you that they were not done by the owner of the property on which this boat was built - show many flaws. One with any knowledge of welding would shudder to think of what is below that which can be viewed. there is no reasonable defense for welding like that. Do you appreciate that, in the local waters in the area where this boat was built, water temperatures in the winter can cause a much better quality 6010/11 weld to crack? I have repaired many such cracks on boats, barges, etc. . Don't buy into Brent's, or anyone else's, "good enough" philosophy. Why accept it when it does not take significantly more time to do it right?

Mike

[peter radclyffe]

QUOTE MAGWAS


So Brent might or might not do excellent steelwork, it does not really affect the quality of his boats.

[troy2000]

OK. In the following comments, I'm not talking about finish carpentry and fine furniture, where looks are paramount. I'm talking about structural work--whether it be framing a house, welding a boat or pouring and finishing concrete.

The fact is that competent craftsmen don't have two levels of quality for their work: one for the parts that no one will ever see, and another for the parts that show. They maintain good standards throughout. They aren't anal about making the visible work perfect, and they don't blow off quality where the work won't be seen. Among other reasons for doing so, maintaining the same quality throughout guarantees they won't do substandard work when it counts.

I remember reading a story about an old boatbuilder upbraiding his apprentice, for not properly smoothing and finishing the bottom side of decking before installing it in the bow of a boat. The apprentice protested, 'but you won't be able to see it when we're done, anyway. No one will ever know.'

The boatbuilder replied, 'there's three that'll know: you, me and God. And that's a damn sight too many.'