Origami steel yacht construction

[SamSam]

Originally Posted by boristhespie

So to recap (lol) Theis method involves having patterns cut which aso have folds impresses into the sheets of metal (?) which joe blogs and others of questionable technical ability but with good welding skills can put together cheaply and quickly.

Hous fast for such a hull?

Go here and search...(you have to join first) Sam

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/

[tugboat]

Alex- could this method work with a "V" hulled design? i have plans for a 30 ft'er tug hull. it is single chine- and has no curved surfaces except for the rounded counter stern and the bulwarks etc. the stem is flat sectioned for ease of building. the sides are plumb down to a chine where the bottom forms a "v" shape. a couple areas are not uniform on the curvature of the bottom i.e. there is a spoon shape albiet not curved but in angles to running in the bearding line of the 1/2 stem. so it would perhaps mean bending at weird sections of the hull. since it isnt uniform throughout the bottom(i hope i am making this clear it s difficult to put into words a design shape) anyway
the designer even mentions that this method could be used- but does not specify which design is appopriate. may i also ask why doesnt there need to be transverse framing??...and could you use sections frames as guides to pulling the hull into shape?

please advise

thanks

[Brent Swain]

Originally Posted by tugboat

Alex- could this method work with a "V" hulled design? i have plans for a 30 ft'er tug hull. it is single chine- and has no curved surfaces except for the rounded counter stern and the bulwarks etc. the stem is flat sectioned for ease of building. the sides are plumb down to a chine where the bottom forms a "v" shape. a couple areas are not uniform on the curvature of the bottom i.e. there is a spoon shape albiet not curved but in angles to running in the bearding line of the 1/2 stem. so it would perhaps mean bending at weird sections of the hull. since it isnt uniform throughout the bottom(i hope i am making this clear it s difficult to put into words a design shape) anyway
the designer even mentions that this method could be used- but does not specify which design is appopriate. may i also ask why doesnt there need to be transverse framing??...and could you use sections frames as guides to pulling the hull into shape?

please advise

thanks

Experiment with models . That makes crystal clear the structural principles , and shapes involved.There is no need for transverse frames to get the shape, if your patterns are right. The model will make this clear. Trying to force the plate onto frames would be a drawback, and cause more trouble than it would save you.
There is an origaimi tug on the NW end of Gabriola Island, just outside if Nanaimo BC, which some friends designed and built back in 89. She has worked out well. They used structural members, like engine mounts and built in tanks, for added stiffness. These can be planned to support flat spots.
The more curves and twists the better. Introducing a bit of curve in otherwise flat spots helps a lot. If the topsides are flat, with no fore and aft curve, then some transverse frames may be needed, amidships ,but only added after the hull and decks are together.

[tugboat]

Brent-- thank you--I have looked at every site listed -i am going to join your yahoo forum-- i didnt mention that i have 2 sets of plans-- a smaller 30 fter which i had to redesign- and a well designed round bilge design ST class tug--
have a look atthe design and maybe you could tell me if this would be beyond the scope of origami?

[Brent Swain]

You would want to convert the tug shown into one with a full length chine, then consider putting in radiused pieces, to round her off. A model would be a good thing to try that out on, but it would be much wiser to find a hard chined tug to begin with.

[tugboat]

Brent --i did think of that--actually i do have a model of that hull - it is made in fiberglass--but i dont want to cut it up...
how would you suggest i do a model...?..could i use paper or thin cardboard and glue over the hull i have??? then open it up as a template?
the hull calls for 3/8 or 1/4 inch plating...what if i used some frames to get the shape?...kind of like a hybrid design...
it seems like the shell is what gives a boat the strength anyway? so fewer frames could be needed?..and just add longitudinals--i.e reduce framing-- add longitudinals and then build the boat as conventional but with larger continuous sheets?..i have seen a technique called shrink wrapped steel hull construction by Ken Hankinson- would this work for the hull shown?

id like to get your book...does it explain more in detail? i dont want to have to bother you too much...i have a lot of questions...sorry

[Brent Swain]

Plywood door skins make a good model glued together with a glue gun. Just use 1/8th inch and make the frames 1/8th inch smaller all around to allow for the thickness of the skin.
Then you can take patterns of this and do origami model experiments with them.
Building the full sized hull over any kind of frames would be far more of a hinderance than a help. Withoutt hem its far simpler.
I once replated the bow of a tug. The steel rub strakes drastically increased the paint chipping problem, and were more trouble than help. The origami tug some friends built had no rubstrakes at all ,and consequently, still looks far better after 20 years than she would had she had rub strakes.

[tugboat]

the following is a design i drew up. 30 ft single chine...It is designed for river travel and some short crossing of Georgian bay and calmer trips on the great lakes towing or pushing a barge houseboat up to places like Tobermory and Little current.
The boat has a shallow draft and low free board aft at the counter stern for ease of line handling.- but small accommodations at the bow in the form of a v berth etc

i know the lines aren't perfect it is an amateur design after all(mine)- so please forgive the bulwarks shear etc not being exactly perfect or other imperfections -im not stupid- so please don't insult my intelligence by pointing out the obvious- I know where and what those faults are...

I wanted to be able to step on the deck from any platform with ease and not hop over higher bulwarks so these are not too high...the tug is mostly intended for inland waterways pushing a houseboat barge.

the question i have is could this be adapted to Origami build style? using say 1/4 inch plate?

[Brent Swain]

Looks great. Good work. A bit low in the freeboard , but should be OK for inland waters.
Flatbar is not the best choice for bulwark caps. Too hard to keep paint on the sharp corners . Galv or ss pipe would be better . It doesn't cost much to have it squashed to an oval. Anything over 1 1/2 inch can be hard to force around the curves. While I prefer to put the bulwark caps on before pulling the hull together ,with larger diameter pipe ,it should be put on after the decks are on.
Galv or ss would be better for the rub strake. SS trim on all outside corners, above the waterline can reduce maintenance by up to 80%, as that is where most paint chipping occurs.

[tugboat]

Thanks Brent- I could do as you suggest and eliminate the rubstrakes?

I know I should go buy a set of ships curves and a good batten to fair up the design a bit better...but i am a sailor not a designer.

Yes the tug is intended more for river and some travel, short distances across Huron when the weather is manageable.

I had thought I could grind down the flatbars edges to a rounded surface?..maybe thats just too much work...i dont know

although flattened pipe is a very good idea too.

The reason i wanted flatbar was I had seen some Gladding-Hearn built tugs use flat bar but ground down on the edges or maybe they were just flat pipe(?)
but it looked great and very functional.. --ill have to go check the site again.

I like the idea of the hawser sliding and working over flatter planes on a tow. although there would be less friction from pipe rails. pipe is expensive compared to flat bar...so I just thought i could grind it all down after it was put on...

you mentioned that you put it on before you attach the bulwarks?..I never thought of that- but it seems to make sense since it would add rigidity to the bulwarks.

I will try to do up a door-skin model. I guess after I have "plated" the model i would then just open it up again to get patterns?...

I will investigate the origami method more--if i feel confident in it, I will go that route...
Thanks for the help Brent...

i think those must be flattened pipe rails- looks like that's the way to go for me...

[Brent Swain]

I fully weld 1 1/4 sch 40 ss or galv pipes onto my bulwarks while the plate is flat on the ground ,before pulling the hull together . I have done the same on the 40 ,with 1 1/2 inch pipe, getting a bit stiff, but anything larger would be a problem, too stiff.
Check the scrapyards for stainless. In BC it comes from pulp mills, in Alberta , from the oil industry, in Australia, from the brewries and sugar industry. It varies from $180 a pound up depending on how sleazy the scrapyard.
I just found that Harper's, a local scrap bandit, is charging more than retail for scrap stainless.

Wow,

finally they found each other, the novice and the amateur!


Now they have to manage the difference between design and fancy drawing..............

[frank smith]

Originally Posted by apex1

Wow,

finally they found each other, the novice and the amateur!


Now they have to manage the difference between design and fancy drawing..............

Richard , I am new here , would you please go into greater detail .
Any help would be greatly appreciated .

Frank

[tugboat]

hey apex- put your balls where your mouth is- lets see you draw one up! if you have the guts? but my guess you are so busy building that 1500 tons of yachts every day that you dont have time--but you do have time to come on here and insult people ..so lets have it! show us!! or f- off! lets see your brilliance with a design or go do another bong or whatever it is you do and stop trying to cause shite. what is it you do anyway with that big 1500 tons of yacht building you do??.sweep the floors for the actual builders and designers??? you have yet to say anything positive or productive to any posts iove read by you on here so every time you say something idiotic as you most certainly will--im going to nail your "a.s.s." with a comeback so bring it on anytime you like...

waiting for your "better" design anytime now

Originally Posted by tugboat

hey apex- put your balls where your mouth is- lets see you draw one up! if you have the guts? but my guess you are so busy building that 1500 tons of yachts every day that you dont have time--but you do have time to come on here and insult people ..so lets have it! show us!! or f- off! lets see your brilliance with a design or go do another bong or whatever it is you do and stop trying to cause shite. what is it you do anyway with that big 1500 tons of yacht building you do??.sweep the floors for the actual builders and designers??? you have yet to say anything positive or productive to any posts iove read by you on here so every time you say something idiotic as you most certainly will--im going to nail your "a.s.s." with a comeback so bring it on anytime you like...

waiting for your "better" design anytime now

What a nonsense to ask a boatbuilder for designing a boat. But be sure he could to a much better result than you! You are argueing with the one who builds more boats per annum than probaly all of the other contributors here accumulated.

When you feel insulted you might ask yourself why you feel so, or why did one act so?

was this comment insulting you too?

Originally Posted by sorenfdk

Tugboat, it seems to me that your version of being "constructive" is to tell you that everything you say is true, and that your way of doing things is the only way to do them.

People with many years of professional experience are trying to tell you that the origami way - in their opinion - isn't the best way. That - in my opinion - is being constructive.

The origami way is a possible way, but - in my opinion - not the best way if you want an efficient structure. Plating with reasonably spaced frames and longitudinals will allways show the best stiffness-to-weight and strength-to-weight ratios.

Another thing: You have mentioned scaling of existing designs. Please don't do this unless you are an experienced designer or NA yourself! Boats scale, but their characteristics do not. You may end up with something dangerous, but you may not discover it before it is too late!

and what do you think, who was meant whith: "People with many years of professional experience" ?


Your quite impertinent statements that you "designed", or "calculated" go not hand in hand with your complete lack of knowledge about the simplest principles!
Telling the baker how to make bread might have been more of an offense than his reply. Or not?

Sure your attempt to "redesign" existing plans and build them in a different building method on top of that, did not find any positive echo amongst the experts.

You childish "show me if you know" is better translated with: "show me how i get my stubborn will!"

btw. per annum means in one year, not every day!

Sasha

Originally Posted by frank smith

Richard , I am new here , would you please go into greater detail .
Any help would be greatly appreciated .

Frank

On the back of you favourite enemy again Mr. Smith?
YOU are one who does not contribute much (maybe better so), but likes to offend!