Offer: true go anywhere Trawler to build "side by side"

[Guest62110524]

do not think anybody but you thinks that Sasha,
and of course that ad zilch
ad zilch, I say look to my gallery when I want to prove a point of to show folk, of course you are far to smallk to admite there is some nice work there
AND YOUR work? none, you sit here all day with nothing better to do than pick holes
you have a tiny following of beginners, the real nice poeple have long seen trhough you, the pros
Saha, go to all my posts, I help all and 90 out of 100 appreciate that
I have mail in my pc that would blow certain folks cred away in this thread
but that is private and , so no I do not hijack theads at all, I could not care less what you or ad zilch say
And you add zilch you are the guy who told bob to cut up a warped girder because it couid not ne saved, he did what I told him to do, and saved a lot of time and money
You simply can not abide that I have you pegged)
and you take the reply to ancient kayakers dinghy query, absolute poppycock, you have never sailed have you? and you are abt as usefull in practical terms as a BSF thread on a Cummins engine

[Ad Hoc]

Qed...

Originally Posted by whoosh

I do not think anybody but you thinks that Sasha,
and of course that ad

I DO MR HEARN ! and I am really pi-sed!

This is a thread about MY boat Hearn, no matter if you like it or not!

Originally Posted by whoosh

i I am really polite to you, try it)works well

when was that? we completely missed it! I have honoured your "polite" attempts to hijack this thread by reducing some points from your rep! I am sure you will not resist to "answer" the same way!
and:

Originally Posted by whoosh

as usefull in practical terms as a BSF thread on a Cummins engine

Thats much a description of your posts whoooosh.......... And just another proof that you try to hijack the thread! Why did´nt you just edit?

Here you cannot show up with your endless "look at my gallery" rubbish. Your comments are neither professional nor welcome! And they are by no means related to the thread.
Get it in your stubborn head Stu, you are not the person to tell ME anything about building such a complex Yacht. And really absolutely NOTHING about marine Diesels and propulsion. I have restored, operated, repaired, and bought many more of them than you probably have seen.

So, please, let me play here with all the unprofessionals like Ad Hoc, Dskira, Mike Johns, Daiquiry, Alik, Mark, Teddy and all those I have forgotten. And offer your advice to some of the novices, there are some around on the Forum.

Originally Posted by Ad Hoc

Qed...

You have to translate that! I doubt Mr Hearn is able to understand Latin Language!

[dskira]

Richard I am sure you know the icebreaker Wal. She is a beauty in my eyes.
The picture is bad I took it from the book Historic Ship.
Let me share some thought about your project since we are talking slow to medium long stroke large diaplacement engine:
Something came to my mind looking at these low speed engines, perhaps the vessel can been slightly heavier without touching the other dimensions. That will give a little more "belly" underwater, more space in the hull, allowing perhaps the 10,000 n.m. range, and a little more inertia if ice has to be separated and will cut in two the freaking container!
I know: the price! it is not a good idea to raise the displacement because it raise the cost!
But in your case I will see some sense to be slightly heavier. You still on the medium to heavy weight range with approximately 250(imperial) displacement/length at 140 tons. (I put a Lwl at 25 meters). You can have some margin to go heavier.
If you go to a price of 3 million euros, at that point it seams not a real concern. 2,4 millions or 3 millions will not push away a real clients.
If the boat cost 2.4 millions Euros the running cost for an average customer will be 240.000 Euros a year. If the customer can just afford that, the boat is already to expensive for him.
The customer should be the ultimate one, the one who has your vision, and the mean to sustain the vision and to go for it all the way. I don't see money an issue at that level.

Daniel

[quote=dskira;296630]Richard I am sure you know the icebreaker Wal. She is a beauty in my eyes.
Daniel

Oh yes Daniel I know her thanks.
In fact I was the one who managed that she was not wrecked in 1989 / 90.
Stettiner Oderwerke, like her bigger sister Stettin.

The first of her breed with "Runeberg" stem. 1933 Stettiner Oderwerke

Stettin, Preussen, Pommern, Berlin, Swinemünde 1937, the Icebreakers of the Chamber of Commerce in Stettin.






at work, from 1937 through 1974

Picture below shows WAL design. The typical Runeberg stem again. Stettin was the first ever with that detail.


I will comment on your thoughts later, sounds sensible to go deeper.

Regards
Richard

edited:
To the hull shape:
when you look at the first picture above, you see a typical Icebreaker hull shaped like a eggshell. No ice pressure possible! BUT these vessels are made for one purpose only! When you go in open water, they roll your heart and soul out.
We had a joke on one of them,

it should be forbidden to serve soup for the meals, when we are in open water! The massive open surface would severly endanger the ship to bail water with the funnel.

And it was just half a joke.....

When you look at my avatar you will se a kind of that Runeberg stem again, that is a sensible thing to do (but hard to find a NA who knows about), and I will go that way. The hull, though will not be shaped that way.

Today I received a quotation for a big ABC straight six of 90 liter displacement. And as I said in one of the former posts, it is not that big a difference (about 20%) but the torque is more than twice, and the lifespan I assume more than ten times, that of a KTA 38 Cummins, to mention whooshs favourite! The TBO is 20.000hrs. that is a few miles......and I could do them with a engine running at a tad above idle, consuming ordinary MDO in smaller quantities than we could consume beer.....hmmm, or so.
Two other quotations are awaited, the heaviest engine is 10 tonnes at 100 liter displ.
We would have to house a monster of three meters in height and some 9 -10 tonnes of cast iron, but we would get the marvellous ...Katuffel, Katuffel, Katuffel...Katuffel, Katuffel, Katuffel....................
I agree with your thoughts Daniel, adding some weight and maybe another meter LOA is not so bad and we could accommodate such a beefy engine with ease.
And I fully concur that there is not much a difference between 2,4 and 3 million. If that is a cobblestone for a prospective building partner, he should not play with the idea of having such size of boat. You are dead right with your op. cost estimation, 10% of the newbuilt is what the average boater has to afford.

[Hägar]

Oh god what a great thread! And what a great offer, you must have a backbone apex to discuss your dream in such a forum! I have read all the posting, wht a project, wish I had the money. Dskira said it nice here

Originally Posted by dskira

This is a very early projection. To be afraid is not the point, the point is to share between us our values and knoweldge or experience to help Richard building the perfect boat. Do you know many professional who are willing to expose their ideas, goal and project on a web paltform to be critisized? It take a lot of balls I tell you. We have to respect that with constructive comments. I do not know if you can plate her chined or bilge rounded in 8 weeks, months or years, again it is not the point.
Yachting is of course about money, but customer respect what the owner of the shipyard will built for himself and stand for his ideas, more that a glossy brochure showing a bikini girl in the bathtub, or with a apron pretending she is in the kitchen
By the way, if you have a problem with some members, please keep it private. Inuendoes are ennoying.
And yes I admire very much Robert Clark. He was a gentlemen.
Now my favorit part: the yacht.
My turn to project and give an opinion: beam is a bad thing. It is always possible to avoid to much beam. Beam raise the displacement for a given draft, good draft is one of the most important factor in offshore cruising, beam raise the scantling of the deck, as it raise the weight of the decks, beam need more power to pass thru a very bad sea. But of course lack of beam can generate high period of roll, very unconfortable. A great beam stress the hull to much, and can generate a lack of period of roll, as unconfortable as to much.
This is not for me to say, but I will ask the NA to give me different scenarios with the existing beam. the superstructures are not that high, you can add a little more draft if necessary.
I think at that point I will start a weight estimate to see where you stand.
I find always usefull to do a weight estimate at the beginning, even if its a sketches as a departure of the project. Going with average scantling weight, known machinery and tankage weight and joinery evaluation weight, it is not to much trouble.
This is as I said my very personal opinion, and yes I am biaised I like less beam and the 4.55 of the project as now, is very good. Even 5 can be acceptable.
But as go the story, this is my opinion and ................you know
Daniel

This man seems to be a little bit besides himself and of course not a friend of great projects.

Originally Posted by whoosh

do not think anybody but you thinks that Sasha,
and of course that ad zilch

But from what I have understood nearly ALL here see it like Sasha.
Go ahead apex1, great task.

Hägar

[dskira]

Thank you for the great pictures. I love the way of the cut off on the icebraeker bow. I see what you mean about the shape.
As your vessel will go where you want to go, with the friendly and faithfull 90 liters 6 cylinders engines turning at 350 rpm perhaps, (iddle at 200rpm) the Katuffel Katuffel Katuffel Katuffel will be a song!
This kind of engine never die, this is serius and beautiful in all aspect.
Daniel

[dskira]

Hagar thank you I apreciate.
Yes it is a great project, need to go ahead with all our thought and opinion. Constructives of course.
It is a very good thread, with very good people.
Daniel

[wardd]

on line claims are just that claims and pics in a gallery are just pics in agallery, especially those without any captions of explanation.

over time one gets a sense of whats bs

just let it go for what it is

[dskira]

Whoosh every body I am sure at one point tried to be nice with you, but you are going to far now.
Please refrain personal attack, and if somebody e-mail you, you have no right to divulge his personal e-mail. It is a breach of trust, and that it is the worst thing you can do.
Now I have one question: Are you happy now? the answer as you knows is: NO.
It is never rewarding to insult people, the one who suffers the most is the one who insult. You know why? because it is like booze, it is never enough, and will make your life a living hell because it will disturb your own daily life.
Concentrate on boat, not on people in the forum.
You how an apology to Richard, I am serious you how him a big one. Be a man and do it.
Try to know people, do not manipulate them, do not insult them.
Whoosh, only weak people insult other. I know it by personal experience.
It is time for you to reverse your attitude and be courteous and give some constructive thought.
By the way If you don't like the thread, don't come in. Nobody put a gun on your head saying: you have to post on this thread.
Last, if you don't like someone, please keep it private.
And re-last: please read the posts before answering. Read it, digest it, think about it, let 24 hours to stew, and then answer.
Daniel

[dskira]

This is my two cents in drawing.
This sketch is just to get the ideas flowing for the icebraker go anywhare project.It is not an intention to by pass the naval architect, and I apologize in advance for any inconvenience he will find.
It is a rough repartitons of the accommodation turning around an engine room, work room and crane has a main consideration. I just want to have a great time in this wounderfull project.
And sometime a sketch is better than a million words (that not from me it's from Napoleon I beleive.)
I did that trying to get a sense for myself following the ideas expressed by Richard about the accommodation on such a vessel.
I am perhaps off but worth it to try!
Daniel

Originally Posted by dskira

This is my two cents in drawing.
This sketch is just to get the ideas flowing for the icebraker go anywhare project.It is not an intention to by pass the naval architect, and I apologize in advance for any inconvenience he will find.
It is a rough repartitons of the accommodation turning around an engine room, work room and crane has a main consideration. I just want to have a great time in this wounderfull project.
And sometime a sketch is better than a million words (that not from me it's from Napoleon I beleive.)
I did that trying to get a sense for myself following the ideas expressed by Richard about the accommodation on such a vessel.
I am perhaps off but worth it to try!
Daniel

So we can go ahead with a serious design.
Sorry Daniel, my friend, we have to stay within a two deck plus wheelhouse arrangement.
The crane is much to large, a good "Palfinger" is about a third of what you have drawn.
I am willing to be extremely conservative on the propulsion side, but the rest has to be highest high tech. For what would I be willing to waste my money, if not for the best? And the best is the most proven, the least failing, the one the commercial world relies on.
Marine Electronics for example have a natural name. But I am sure that there are hundreds of contradictions.
Not if you ask how many miles they did with the crap they prefer.
A Radar for example is a Furuno, a Gps, is a Furuno, a .......
leave it, many know better....

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by dskira

...
Thank you, it make me very happy to know that you are also testing yourself your models.

Resistance tests over a range of speeds are quite informative, even a pole with a pulley, and a weight on the end of the towline with different weights timed over a set distance is very useful.

I like the idea of Johns back yard test tank and probably all of us have dreamed of this.

Once you have done some basic testing you can see which prediction method fits the hull and then you can use resistance prediction software for minor change investigation without continually rebuilding the physical model. but this is worthy of a thread of it's own at some stage .


Richard
I have not forgotten this thread I have been very busy and remain so for a while. I'm sorry you received personal attacks, they never serve a useful purpose and just leave bitterness which Daniel sums up quite well.

I agree with you about accessible side decks and comfortable rough weather berths and it's good to see your appreciation of those attributes.


You also need to look after the chef too much slamming fwd and the cakes don't rise

Originally Posted by MikeJohns

Resistance tests over a range of speeds are quite informative, even a pole with a pulley, and a weight on the end of the towline with different weights timed over a set distance is very useful.

I like the idea of Johns back yard test tank and probably all of us have dreamed of this.

Once you have done some basic testing you can see which prediction method fits the hull and then you can use resistance prediction software for minor change investigation without continually rebuilding the physical model. but this is worthy of a thread of it's own at some stage .


Richard
I have not forgotten this thread I have been very busy and remain so for a while. I'm sorry you received personal attacks, they never serve a useful purpose and just leave bitterness which Daniel sums up quite well.

I agree with you about accessible side decks and comfortable rough weather berths and it's good to see your appreciation of those attributes.


You also need to look after the chef too much slamming fwd and the cakes don't rise

Who was asked to complain here daily? You are welcome on any schedule.


The chef will have its area at a very convenient location, at the main deck, be sure. Ähh.... mainly I will be the one to prepare meals.

[dskira]

You also need to look after the chef too much slamming fwd and the cakes don't rise

This is very true, and as said Richard, the chef is the one preparing the meals

we have to stay within a two deck plus wheelhouse arrangement

Ok an other of my two cents:
Two deck plus the pilothouse in this size will make sense since all accommodation can be spread longitudinaly and using the greatest beam.
The galley can be close to the middle next to the dinning saloon on the main deck, an other small galley with a microwave can be down bellow to the crew compartment in their mess area.
The librairy can be next to the master stateroom which can be on the main deck too.
The space in the hull can be reserved to guest and crew.
By the way, I don't remember if it was posted, how many guest will be invited?
From almost the half of the vessel to the transom, can be reserved to engine room, work room and store room, and the rudder room.
Perhaps an oversize flush deck hatch can be on the aft deck, giving easier access to the work room for oversize operation like a large repair on the generators. Note that I didn't say engine, a 90 liters @ 300 rpm never brooke!
Daniel