Offer: true go anywhere Trawler to build "side by side"

[dskira]

I just like to try to resume what I know from the thread:

The vessel is wider, longer and is displacement is around 140 tons
The engine room will 3 m high full beam, accessible from the interior corridor and deck
The pilothouse will be 360 degree with head and sink.
The owner room will be close to the point of least motion of the vessel
The boat will be built of steel. Superstructure can be alu (I think)
The generators are not important, can be replaced.
Batteries is in, for silence and convenience
The range is 5000 nm
It will be go anywhere, built to ram a floating container at full speed.
Ice resistant but not ice class. (I think I understood that way)
The bulbous bow still in discussion but close to be scrap (I think, I am not sure)
CPP mendatory (base of the whole concept of the vessel)
One engine, one shaft, one wheel.
Wet exhaust, or dry/wet exhaust, cooling not decided (I am right on this one?)
Very efficient fuel polishing system.
Tank testing is in. One model allready tested was refused.
Naval architect will re-work the weight estimate due to increase of size.
Engine was 25 liters displacement, can be larger due to increase of displacement from 100 tons to 140 tons.
5 tons was allowed for the mechanical, but can be increase. See above.
A profile was shown, the vessel final profile will be close to the one posted. No nonsense vessel, comercial grade.
The project attracted two interrested parties.
The vessel as to be built with a sistership in the same time.
The price will be 2.4 Euros for the new dimensions
The resale value of the vessel will be not a major concern.

I did'nt put in order, I just read again the whole thread taking notes.
Did I miss or misenderstood some of the aspect of the project status?

Cheers
Daniel

[apex1]

Originally Posted by dskira

I just like to try to resume what I know from the thread:

right

Superstructure IS Alu!

valid for the spares in workshop only! The main gennies have to be quality.

right! About 1500Ah for Hotel load.

min.

The bulb is gone, the hull has ice class.

First point on the list!

Dry

Say a basic one (but with the common complement of filters (common in commercial use), that sums up to be very efficient yes.

Right

with the standard Lugger 23ltr. engine and a CPP

Cheers
Daniel

Yes!!!
How could you forget to mention my very sophisticated beef and beer cooling hold?

Originally Posted by dskira

Now about old engine this last one, I can't resist:The 1929 Krupp engines on the previous RosenKavalier, (I think Haida now, the original name) a very amazing and beautiful vessel. The engines still goind strong, 750 hp @ 250 Rpm. Talk about torque

ahhh, these old straight, big monsters with open heads were a piece of art in themselves. And they made a special sort of music.
Say: Katuffel, Katuffel,Katuffel,Katuffel,Katuffel,Katuffel,Katuffel........
The best sound was made By the old Skoda, I can still hear them at the Bosphorus when some tiny old coaster is passing, music..........

Richard

[whoosh]

the majority of ships engines are of the crosshead 2 cycle type

take a look, I think you are confused abt the type the type is the most mechanically efficient of any internal combustion engine up to 50%
http://www.marinediesels.info/Basics...xplanation.htm

go out and listen those engines you hear in the Bosperous arew cross heads, if you know your diesels and , then you can tell how many cyls they have, often they are 3 and 5, these have a beat of their own,
and someone say torque
Maximum power: 108,920 hp at 102 rpm
Maximum torque: 5,608,312 lb/ft at 102rpm
that is torque, follow the link
and then there was the opposed piston eng Doxford, still in use many ships today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKWOi0C-sak
I have been to sea as engineer 2nd on small ships eng to 3000 shp , that was long time back, but large diesels I do have great love of
I can see what a truly Great engine, these larger cummins are on the rivers of eu many of the old German engines are being replaced by American, cats cummins
the long list of defunk companies goes on and on Carita originally had a pair of handed Paxmans 500 shp side Alaska diesel will one day be on that list, just another tiny maufacturer using Komatsu blocks

[apex1]

[quote=whoosh;296342]

the majority of ships engines are of the crosshead 2 cycle type

Anyone around here who does´nt know that? But in the range we are talking we do´nt have them (2 stroke) anymore. (as far as I know)

take a look, I think you are confused abt the type

You are the confused here Stu! Cos you try to tell me ship propulsion. For what? I know what I am talking, and I know it from hands on experience. From coal fired steam propulsion to Diesel Electric, from stoking the boilers to commanding the vessel.

I have been to sea as engineer 2nd on small ships eng to 3000 shp , that was long time back

Yes Stu, you told us. And I mentioned that I made my tickets on Icebreakers. And what does that mean now? Right, nothing.

I am a advocate of the the bigger the better philosophy since ages, but within a sensible range. And Cummins is not within the range, the KTA 19 is too small, the 38 is a 12 cyl. and I do not have other than straight six as a propulsion thats a fact. And it is not worth discussing why, because every engineer knows.
The ABC at 90 liter, the Yanmar at 50, the Mitsubishi at 35, are possible choices, yes. But the Lugger 6170 is not the worst choice, there is nothing wrong with the Komatsu base. All Pacific Northwest up and down, loves that engine and you find it in every second fishboat, why?
Richard

[whoosh]

I was making atatement abt classes, 100-400, and so on, I was THEN not talking abt your boat, the fact is they were never made for smaller engines, the main advantahe being the huge stroke that could be obtained
we were talking diesels, none of the stuff DAN POSTED WAS REVELANT to your boat in his last photo either
threads lead places, we cant stay on one close parametre all the time , would be a dull lold place
was yapping to a young NA in Tr today, told me abt this new marina, near Bodrum
prces 14m berth 90 days 2400 euros, be empty a long time I would say
i cant rememebr all i say, or where, I am really polite to you, try it)
works well
never knew abt Ice BREAKERS? which? where and when, thsi is a serious question Do you know the Krasnir?

[Ad Hoc]

dskira

"..No having often the fund to ask a proper tank testing facility to test, I use model, scaled on size and weight distribution, and tested here on the pound. Sometime self propelled. It is amazing how just that simple test will show me the main character of the hull..."

It may surprise you but that is what my colleague and I do. My colleague has been doing this for over 40years, me just around 20. I am actually in the process of making my own test tank in my back garden, 25m long. Since i no longer have a pond close to me, nor my colleagues tank (he has one too). The models we make are identical, of course to the real thing, just as any full-on test house. Over the years we have found that our rough and ready tank test result are never more than 5% different with the real full blown expensive one we get done later to satisfy the contract for the client. We basically do exactly what Froude did many years ago...so not surprising the results are consistent. We offer this tank test service to anyone now...a quicker cheaper method of obtain results.

[Ad Hoc]

Richard
"...I choose for longevity, reliability and easy service!.."

The customer is always right, whatever the numbers say....i also fully concur with your appraisal. Very very few customers select this route. Many opt for initial capital costs or rather the cheapest initial capitol costs. Only to their dismay and annoyance in the ensuing years or running costs.

[dskira]

Originally Posted by Ad Hoc

dskira

"..No having often the fund to ask a proper tank testing facility to test, I use model, scaled on size and weight distribution, and tested here on the pound. Sometime self propelled. It is amazing how just that simple test will show me the main character of the hull..."

It may surprise you but that is what my colleague and I do. My colleague has been doing this for over 40years, me just around 20. I am actually in the process of making my own test tank in my back garden, 25m long. Since i no longer have a pond close to me, nor my colleagues tank (he has one too). The models we make are identical, of course to the real thing, just as any full-on test house. Over the years we have found that our rough and ready tank test result are never more than 5% different with the real full blown expensive one we get done later to satisfy the contract for the client. We basically do exactly what Froude did many years ago...so not surprising the results are consistent. We offer this tank test service to anyone now...a quicker cheaper method of obtain results.

Your post is so important to me. I was slighlty reluctant to post about that, knowing that sometime it's confused with playing with toy boat.
Thank you, it make me very happy to know that you are also testing yourself your models.

[Ad Hoc]

"...knowing that sometime it's confused with playing with toy boat..."

We would always get funny looks from poeple (when we did this in the pond before using the tank in the back garden). Comments like..."oh..lovely...you with the model yacht club??"...or some walking by sniggering thinking, "sad grown ups playing with model boats".

To the uninitiated, everything looks odd and of no use...

Nice summary above, by the way.

[apex1]

Originally Posted by whoosh

we were talking diesels, none of the stuff DAN POSTED WAS REVELANT to your boat in his last photo either

Completely wrong Stu sorry! WE WERE TALKING DIESELS--- WE. When will you learn that I am not like you? And I am not like the average boater? I am no yachtie! I do what I do to commercial standards only, or I leave it.
And this is a thread about MY personal boat and a possible sistership. Here we discuss MY boat, MY diesel and MY issues and demands. When you do´nt like that, I have no problem if you leave. But I have a problem with completely senseless crap like marinas in Bodrum or elsewhere. You claim to be polite??? This was your fifth or sixth attempt to hijack the thread.

never knew abt Ice BREAKERS? which? where and when, thsi is a serious question Do you know the Krasnir?

Of course I know the Krasin, who does´nt. Ermak and Krasin are the most famous vessels in that job.
The rest you could know since long, but as I said above, you do´nt read a thread before you contradict.

Ad Hoc...The customer is always right, whatever the numbers say....i also fully concur with your appraisal. Very very few customers select this route. Many opt for initial capital costs or rather the cheapest initial capitol costs. Only to their dismay and annoyance in the ensuing years or running costs.

Thats the crux, not enough people have the balls to contradict the customer, and not enough customers have the backbone to stand a contradiction and follow good advice. I was brought up with our family philosophy that we are too poor to buy cheap. And I learned soon that this was one reason why we were not too poor to buy quality.
But you know, greed is the motor of the business, stinginess and stupidity the fuel.
So, let them buy the cr@p, and let me have what I want, peace in mind and smaller bills. (but bigger engines)

Originally Posted by dskira

Your post is so important to me. I was slighlty reluctant to post about that, knowing that sometime it's confused with playing with toy boat.
Thank you, it make me very happy to know that you are also testing yourself your models.

What should be wrong with it? As long as one is professional enough to know what he can NOT achieve, every way of trial and error is a acceptable one. And John and I agreed in another thread, that T and E is still a valid method.
Regards
Richard

[wardd]

out of curiosity wouldn't it be simpler to have a return circuit tank where the water is circulated past the model

one possible advantage would be that weights and balance could be changed simply by adding weights to rods that hold the model in place

drag could be monitored by something as simple as a postal scale and accurately too

thats the way boeings wind tunnel was set up

water speed could be changed and a lengthly test performed without running back and forth

baffles would be needed at both ends to smooth out water flow but these could be pvc pipe

if this isnt clear i could do a sketch

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by wardd

out of curiosity wouldn't it be simpler to have a return circuit tank where the water is circulated past the model

The benefits beeing as you said but some cons too. Slow to fire becouse it just takes more time to get water in motion than air. It also uses a lot more energy to keep it going. More eddies with water create some inaccuracy.

[M-Sasha]

Now after whoosh has failed again to hijack this thread, we should not make it the Tank Test Thread. I did express my dislike with whooshs attempts in a negative feedback.

Can you imagine what this man offers here? Such a ship at that price is a gift. Even a plain commercial boat of that size will normally cost more.
Sasha
To remember what this thread was for:

Originally Posted by apex1

As many of you know, I am in the final concept phase for my own (ultimate?) passagemaker.
The vessel will be of a rugged, commercial appearence and by no means a "fashionable" boat. All systems will be of commercial grade and at least double redundant (except for the engine there´s only one, a "real" one). My NA just informed me that the hull was originally designed for twin engines, then converted for me to single. Means twin is a option.

Target figures are:
LOA 27,5 m
LWL 25.5 m
BWL 5.6 m
Draught 2.2 m
Range 5.500 nm @ 11.2 kn
Endurance 90 days
Cruising 11.5 kn
Max. 14 kn.

The boat will be build in either Steel/Al or Al/Al (final decision is not made yet). Both options are designed, and cost is almost the same anyway. Ice Class is the question. Not for the high lat. only, but having also floating containers in mind.

Yes, you are right. The wood / Epoxy man is going metal!?! Yahh, for a reason, Wood is not as good on icebreaking or hammering on a reef for hours, as metal. And it happens, no matter how careful or skilled we are. I know from experience. So, whats a perfect choice for a holiday cruise in the Med. must not be the best choice for 20 years of circumnavigating (I hope i have 20 left).

Now, before I start boring the audience, I thought about building a second vessel "side by side", that would save about 12-15% of cost. A wide range of customization of the accommodation is still possible for the second vessel.

I offer anyone here, interested in a custom newbuild to get his one built at the same time, same yard, same cost. We will end up at about 2 million each, due to the fact, that there is no profit, broker or overhead cost. Euro of course. Thats about half the common market price, or about the price of a tiny 64ft plastic boat from a well known US company, not ice (container) capable of course, plastic.

The vessels will be build under my fulltime supervision and survey, classed +100 A5, E2, to IACS. Build will be fully insured against yards bancrupcy, payments will be handled through escrow account of a Swiss notary of your choice.
Estimated building time is 12 month, laying keels is possible within 3-4 month from now.
Yes I will post plans and pictures, but not before construction is underway. My avatar does NOT show any similarity!
Further terms and conditions as personal requests in a private conversation please. Just send me a mail (click my name).

Kindest regards
Richard

So then, lookup your wallet or invite Granny for a night at the Bronx...........

[whoosh]

I do not think anybody but you thinks that Sasha,
and of course that ad zilch
ad zilch, I say look to my gallery when I want to prove a point of to show folk, of course you are far to smallk to admite there is some nice work there
AND YOUR work? none, you sit here all day with nothing better to do than pick holes
you have a tiny following of beginners, the real nice poeple have long seen trhough you, the pros
Saha, go to all my posts, I help all and 90 out of 100 appreciate that
I have mail in my pc that would blow certain folks cred away in this thread
but that is private and , so no I do not hijack theads at all, I could not care less what you or ad zilch say
And you add zilch you are the guy who told bob to cut up a warped girder because it couid not ne saved, he did what I told him to do, and saved a lot of time and money
You simply can not abide that I have you pegged)
might add that I am proud of what I do, yes room to do better
but thats what this site is all about boatbuilding and so far you have shown us TALK TALK TALK

[Ad Hoc]

I agree with Sasha.

Whoosh's post are always negative to anyone that disagrees with him or points out his prejudices etc or points out he is not contributing to a thread other than to say 'look in my gallery' or talks on subject totally unrelated merely to say 'look what i can do too'.....