Offer: true go anywhere Trawler to build "side by side"

[dskira]

I realy like her too

Originally Posted by dskira

I realy like her too

Schaarhörn, 1908 Janssen & Schmilinsky Hamburg, 41x6,80m, 230BRT, I know almost every bolt and rivet................
a alltime beauty.



Alexandra, another Janssen & Schmilinsky, built 1908 too, 37x7m, 140BRT


The picture below shows Kronprinz 35x6,4m, 120BRT, 1910 Neptun Werft. In the background left, Schaarhörn drydocked. Both underwent their major refit at the same time in Hamburg. Jöhnk Werft, 1991 (my picture)

[dskira]

I thought you will know her!
It must be a treat to go onboard. She is a a real beauty.
I saw her lines drawing in a magazine years ago, I think she displace 400 tons, but that I am not sure. I remember the lines drawing, very gracefull, extremely easy and flowing. A beautiful design, like so often on steam yacht design.
Cheers
Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

Nice....nice "looking" Richard

The D.Gerr is a nice 'classic' looking design too.

Has your NA stated a weight estimate yet?....so we can see what 'budgets' ahve been allocated to such things like the engines and propulsion systems etc....this way, certainly dskira could more than most, with his superior knowledge on those heavy diesels, see what other options may be possible.

[Ad Hoc]

Wow...wonderful 'old boats'......one can almost smell the salty sea permeated with the smell of soot

[dskira]

Originally Posted by Ad Hoc

Nice....nice "looking" Richard

The D.Gerr is a nice 'classic' looking design too.

Has your NA stated a weight estimate yet?....so we can see what 'budgets' ahve been allocated to such things like the engines and propulsion systems etc....this way, certainly dskira could more than most, with his superior knowledge on those heavy diesels, see what other options may be possible.

I realy apreciate, but my knoweldge is far from superior. I had the oportunity to be on vessel with ABC three cylinders, on other with Guascor 6 cylinders (more modern configuration medium speed) and for smaller vessel the Fita, one monstruous cylinder (made on order), a design like the old Lister, and my favorite, but medium speed, the Kelvin 6.
At the time almost all the engine for fishing vessel use to be of low speed or medium speed, large displacement, accepting all sort of fuel. Some on direct coupling with engine stopped and re-started in reverse.
And some of these engine built from scratch without a brand name.
I was investigating here in the US the use of the Arrow oil field engine for boat, but the client back of of the project. I have a real passion for old oil field engine.
I am not, by far a mechanic, I just love low speed engine, for their simplicity, reliability, and for personal sentimental reason. I love the noise, the smell and the feeling of strenght of these engines. All of them always had a very spacious engine room, due to the maintenance, all of them can be overhall in situ, and also the price been much higher, better to take care of them!
You see nothing very professional on that, just good memories.
But didn't I say I will not come back to this subject
Cheers
Daniel

[Guest62110524]

Gooday Dan

Nice to talk the other day
Diesels

I think we can all class them as such

1— Slow the crosshead 2 cycle 100 –400 rpm ships engine the efficiency just keeps improving, mech efficiency highest of any internal combustion engine

2—slow to medium speed, 400-900 rpm mostly four cycles

3 medium – fast 900 1500

4 fast to high speed 1500 2300

5
High speed to very high speed which is above 2500

So we have a choice for this boat number 2, heavy, and very expensive, because of the massive forgings, and castings and 3, medium
‘
I would opt for 3

The way a ship is designed, , what screw? From the screw comes the engine type,

But now we see people saying, oh we have a engine, so what screw? This is back to front
We say this ship needs this screw, and then we match engine and gear
In this case with Apex the optimum would be a Cummins KTA type

Why
Well this engine does 30000- hrs in mining sit without touching Mining, is very harsh on engines, So he can take this eng with deep reduction, and fraction price slower engine, and when he is long dead this will be running)

IF you google tuna fleet NA you will see most ships are Cummins powered
World wide back up, unparalleled warranty
747,s and Cummins are maybe the best things to come out of USA
HOW DO I KNOW THIS?
Well in early 70, s I worked for Cummins
I was also as I said to you, 2nd engineer tug Chippy T, out of Great Yarmouth UK operating Ecofisk field half way between Aberdeen and Norway
we had medium speed 900 rpm, 6 to one reduction 12 foot ss screws, I tink from memory 5 blade
nobody has mentioned the excellent medium sp. Jap diesels as used in the Tuna long line boats

[Ad Hoc]

Until the boat is tank tested and the resistance is known in all conditions, the drag and hence the thrust required from the prop is also unknown. So using the CPP that Richard wants requires more data and hece which engine is best to deliver the power to provide the thrust requires across the speed range.

Need to tank test first, before saying which engine is best...

[Guest62110524]

Originally Posted by Ad Hoc

Until the boat is tank tested and the resistance is known in all conditions, the drag and hence the thrust required from the prop is also unknown. So using the CPP that Richard wants requires more data and hece which engine is best to deliver the power to provide the thrust requires across the speed range.

Need to tank test first, before saying which engine is best...

no doubt abt it mate you are 100% theory, still carry on, nobody least of all I listen
who the fuch tank tests?

[Ad Hoc]

Whoosh

I see you're back to your usual ad hominem and diatribe rants again rather than actually contributing again worth while.

"..no doubt abt it mate you are 100% theory, still carry on, nobody least of all I listen
who the fuch tank tests?.."

Clearly someone who "don't tell me anything because I've been in building for 40 years" thinks is not necessary just speaks volumes of what you have, or rather have not, been doing for 40 years....

So, in the 70s, which is only 30 years ago, not 40....is this what you call building, working for cummins and also a 2nd engineer on a tug?

[dskira]

Originally Posted by Ad Hoc

Until the boat is tank tested and the resistance is known in all conditions, the drag and hence the thrust required from the prop is also unknown. So using the CPP that Richard wants requires more data and hece which engine is best to deliver the power to provide the thrust requires across the speed range.

Need to tank test first, before saying which engine is best...

I agree fully. Tank testind is a very good way to detect the whole hull strenght and weakness.
No having often the fund to ask a proper tank testing facility to test, I use model, scaled on size and weight distribution, and tested here on the pound. Sometime self propelled. It is amazing how just that simple test will show me the main character of the hull. I am not saying it's scientific by far, but it is very helpful.
I find sometime redesigning the hull because of this test, mostly when the design is of norms. I tested different style of bow, from full depth bow to cutaway bow. It was very enlightening.

Now about old engine this last one, I can't resist:The 1929 Krupp engines on the previous RosenKavalier, (I think Haida now, the original name) a very amazing and beautiful vessel. The engines still goind strong, 750 hp @ 250 Rpm. Talk about torque

[dskira]

Quite a beauty.

[wardd]

helene

more years ago than i care to think about i was a modelmaker for boeing/vertol making models for wind tunnel testing, even then the science of model testing was amazingly accurate as to the real thing, can anyone say flextures

and this was a time when mechanical calculators and slide rules were still in use

a few strain gauges will tell you a lot

[quote=whoosh;296257]

1— Slow the crosshead 2 cycle 100 –400 rpm ships engine the efficiency just keeps improving, mech efficiency highest of any internal combustion engine

There are no such left as far as I know!

2—slow to medium speed, 400-900 rpm mostly four cycles

Thats what Daniel and I am talking at present.

3 medium – fast 900 1500

The big Lugger, the Mitsubishis, Yanmars or the KTA 38 are in that range. The Lugger I have already.
Sulzer had a very nice 6cyl. in that range and that was my very first choice, but Wärtsilä did not continue this engine model. The smallest Wärtsilä they offered was above 1.000Kw, thats too much.
There may be some Reman. on the market, I look since half a year now.

4fast to high speed 1500 2300
5High speed to very high speed which is above 2500

Completely out of discussion, and they have ever been.

So we have a choice for this boat number 2, heavy, and very expensive, because of the massive forgings, and castings and 3, medium

First I have the choice I would say. It sure is worth to have a closer look at the 450 to 750 rpm range. And I do at present. (well besides sailing)

And the statement that these engines are very expensive is wrong, sorry! When you count cost over TBO these monster become cheaper, and when you calculate purchase and op cost over a 20 year period (and nothing else makes sense) they cost much less than a mass product like the Cummins, for example.
Stu, you obviously do´nt like the idea, that this is not a showboat, sitting at the docks. And that I am not a yachtie playing boaty, boaty.
This is, as mentioned in the opening post, A TRUE GO ANYWHERE BOAT! This boat will travel.

The way a ship is designed, , what screw? From the screw comes the engine type,

You should really read the thread Stu, not only your postings! You should know from the very beginning that I install a CPP for sure!

But now we see people saying, oh we have a engine, so what screw?

You do´nt think you see me acting that dumb way!?! do you?

Originally Posted by whoosh

who the fuch tank tests?

Only the professional world Stuart! And I mentioned that the hull shown here WAS tank tested!

Originally Posted by Ad Hoc

Until the boat is tank tested and the resistance is known in all conditions, the drag and hence the thrust required from the prop is also unknown. So using the CPP that Richard wants requires more data and hece which engine is best to deliver the power to provide the thrust requires across the speed range.
Need to tank test first, before saying which engine is best...

Right as usual!
But I do not choose a engine for best price performance ratio anyway. I choose for longevity, reliability and easy service! The torque in the class I will install is far above the demand in any case. I can turn a wheel of about 1,5 meter that makes a easy choice with a CPP.
If possible, a heavy, slow speed eng. without red. gear.

Another tank test is about 40.000 to 50.000€ for that boat, that should be in the budget.

Originally Posted by wardd

more years ago than i care to think about i was a modelmaker for boeing/vertol making models for wind tunnel testing, even then the science of model testing was amazingly accurate as to the real thing, can anyone say flextures
and this was a time when mechanical calculators and slide rules were still in use
a few strain gauges will tell you a lot

Thanks wardd a nice boat too! Though much younger.

The tank testing is not really new for me. We have our HSVA in Hamburg since almost 100 years now, and I did know them as a schoolboy. Though, the hull which I recently refused to build was tested in Wageningen.



Who brought that thing up to post old steamers??????
You know (at least most), I love them really but what I am planning here is almost the opposite.

Regards
Richard

Originally Posted by Ad Hoc

Has your NA stated a weight estimate yet?....so we can see what 'budgets' ahve been allocated to such things like the engines and propulsion systems etc....

Of course not completely. I am still not through with my accommodation. The first calc.s were made at 5 tons for the complete propulsion (engine, red. gear, shaft, prop).
But we start from scratch anyway, due to going wider.