Offer: true go anywhere Trawler to build "side by side"

[Frosty]

[quote=dskira;
Perhaps as a mechanical wizzard give us more of your thoughts,
Cheers
Daniel[/QUOTE]

Your calling me a mechanical wizard? well thank you very much. Im not sure what to call you!!! Im sure we will hear more from you as your confidence grows.

[dskira]

I realy enjoy this picture of the 25 meters in building in the late 1960s. at the De Vries shipyard.
I took it on the book of the Feadship story.
It as some nice detail.
Daniel

[apex1]

Nice picture Daniel! Thank you.
That looks like a ice stringer in the first boat? No, but it shows the typical "Dutch" framing on 45 cm centers.
Richard

[whoosh]

Originally Posted by dskira

I realy enjoy this picture of the 25 meters in building in the late 1960s. at the De Vries shipyard.
I took it on the book of the Feadship story.
It as some nice detail.
Daniel

Dan
can you please start a new thread on elegent ships(yachts) I will be into that, as soon as you do I wiull delete this post, as I am forbidden contribute here)
I too love the Feadships and it is how I build frames no stringers, to real boatbuilders stringers are a dirty word
So just for staal, steel and alu
see that top run, well the Dutch had a way of developing the plates, they used a matrix of criss cross sticks, from the true length of sheer(bovinline) and plate line and body plan

I had a small yard next to a cuppla Dutch guys and they were too jealous to show me how However they learnt from us the overhead plate wheeling and forming machine
you see the nose on the one behind? it takes me 3 hrs to form thsi one, but I need someone on the switch to reverse the wheels,
The Dutch used recipricol presses
In alloy clipper like this is harder than steel as is an ordinary cone type, , in steel you can shrink the edge , which bows it, , that is not possible in al al
the fairest yacht I saw was built in germany

[apex1]

Originally Posted by whoosh

I too love the Feadships and it is how I build frames no stringers, to real boatbuilders stringers are a dirty word

Except for a "icestringer" for example, Stuart! That is and remains to be a icestringer (I mean for "real boatbuilders" and yards, of course). Stringer: (Substantiv / male) longitudinal scantling......................
And welding to longs and stringers instead of frames is the preferred way, the pro´s choose, btw. You should learn to know longitudinal reinforcements, girders, and stringers, before you contradict in such a premature way again. Now I do it! I name you a non professional!
And to broaden the horizon:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Z6D...20ship&f=false
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O225-stringer.html
http://www.gl-group.com/infoServices...h/abschn15.pdf

So far on that! (GL I guess, or Zosen Kiokai, we can name professional enough???)

the fairest yacht I saw was built in germany

yes, where else?


Richard

[apex1]

She goes 29 by 6,80 as to my spec.s
weight will be around 140 metric tonnes.
That means price will be about 2,4 m €, not the same as formerly supposed. (not hte same ship)
But that anyway attracted just two people. Which impresses me a bit, I thought this is a so outstanding offer, it would attract some five or more!?


to end up with the one true............

[whoosh]

not so sure abt ice stringer, as my mate said, (I missed it) the frames which are half the distance apart up there have to land on this shelf
By the way the Eng are very experinced ice class, all their artic trawlers were such
BUT I do not despute as I said, that German small ships, and large are quality and they have forgotton more than I or anyone else will ever know
In 3 weeks I join a retired shipbuilder in Croatia
a link , it is not THE atlantic class was looking for
http://www.atlantic.no/marine/defaul...71,3174&lang=2
and do not forget the great yards of of Poland, built soem wonderful ice class trawlers
I think the modern term TRAWLER as coined by the USA is a bit of an insult to these great ships
onece I spoke by radio to skipper of ARTIC BUCCANEER, fishing in the Southern Ocean nz, he told me they stopped tralwing at 60 knots
Artic Biuccaneer is no Otago Buccaneer 1973 Gdansk shipyard

[dskira]

Originally Posted by apex1

She goes 29 by 6,80 as to my spec.s
weight will be around 140 metric tonnes.
That means price will be about 2,4 m €, not the same as formerly supposed. (not hte same ship)
But that anyway attracted just two people. Which impresses me a bit, I thought this is a so outstanding offer, it would attract some five or more!?


to end up with the one true............

Do you have specific reason for this raise in weight and size? 100 tons to 140 tons it's quite a different vessel, im term of every thing around as you know.
I think attracting two people on a project just started is quite good. The project more advanced will have attracted more people.
But it is true that the market of new built seams to go toward larger yacht. Buy the way 140 tons at Euros 2.4M if far less expensive than 100 tons at Euros 2 M. So the new specifications are a far better deal.
Let us know more, that is an evolution.
Daniel

[dskira]

Perhaps at this new size you can take a look at the low speed large displacement engine like the ABC or Callesen. I think they are the only brand on the range suitable for the 140 tons, as a low speed diesel. They start at 250 hp I think. The other brand like Watsila start only at bigger hp.
Their weight is quite high, but it can be considered part of the ballast.
The ABC as a separate lube oil tank, no oil sump, so the engine seat low.The starting system is compress air.
Callesen offert the complete system, shafting and props.
Their torque is impressive.
A personal design thought: going in that direction, the engine room can be on two deck high with a mezzanine all around and a skylight. I know its quite old fashion and obsolete, but these engine are so beautiful, looking at them is an attraction.
Just a thought
Daniel

[apex1]

Originally Posted by dskira

Perhaps at this new size you can take a look at the low speed large displacement engine like the ABC or Callesen. I think they are the only brand on the range suitable for the 140 tons, as a low speed diesel. They start at 250 hp I think. The other brand like Watsila start only at bigger hp.
Their weight is quite high, but it can be considered part of the ballast.
The ABC as a separate lube oil tank, no oil sump, so the engine seat low.The starting system is compress air.
Callesen offert the complete system, shafting and props.
Their torque is impressive.
A personal design thought: going in that direction, the engine room can be on two deck high with a mezzanine all around and a skylight. I know its quite old fashion and obsolete, but these engine are so beautiful, looking at them is an attraction.
Just a thought
Daniel

Thank you Daniel.
Yes the Callesen engines are impressive pieces, and I would like to have one. (the complete package of course, because they have very good CPP´s in that). But at around 12 tonnes for a 460 hp they are quite a bit above my weight estimations. (and the prices are as well)
I have no experience with the Belgium ones, so cannot comment on that.
Will comment on your other thoughts later.
Regards
Richard

[apex1]

Yeah Daniel, nice and beefy engines. Especially the Callesen. (I feel better with Danish than with Belgium stuff).
But 137 Liter displacement and 14,7 tonnes to make 500HP, thats quite a good ballast! But of course they make sense. You could bunker any MDF / MDO fuel (and even palmoil, where it is produced). At present 550$ per mt MDO, that sounds nice.

When you look at the profile, you can say all the hull aft of the deck salon is engine room and workshop. I am moving the exhaust stacks aft of the salon. There will be a deck hatch for each, the workshop and eng. room. The hydraulic crane moves to aft end of main deck (bringing the weight lower), and reaches over both hatches. Eng. room hatch is bolted in place and not meant to be opened regularly. Workshop hatch opens easy but has only sufficient size to heave a 8 cyl. car engine in and out.
A skylight would disturb the deck and does not fit the "modern" look of the vessel. The eng. room has about 3m height but to get enough headroom in the shop I had to add another meter in length.
The alternative was engine room aft and vee drive gear, but I do´nt like the weight so far aft and the angle of engine and shaft. Too low air intake and exhaust and no inside access (extremely important for me).

Width has to be greater due to some points I will not give up. The eng. room must have access from the inside (from deck too), that means there has to be a corridor. Because I like to sleep as close to the center of pitch and roll as possible and I like to have a second, small cabin with single bunks as a "heavy weather accommodation" near center of movement too. (try to sleep in a king size bed at sea state 6 or higher) Thats both below salon. Means width....
Tenders weight has to be low, means main deck stowage, but one has to be able to walk easily around them. All the main deck MUST be a walkaround deck. When you ever have worked on a other one, with a line or a fender in your hands, you will immediately understand what I am talking.
The wheelhouse is quite a large one (bit shorter as shown), and has a pilot berth and a WC! On a fully crewed vessel you do´nt need that, but with "family crew", on your first all night watch, you know pretty soon the value of a bridgedeck loo. Thats all weight....

Regards
Richard

Originally Posted by whoosh

to real boatbuilders stringers are a dirty word

That was a own goal! Mr lazeyjack/whoosh
Hull material for arctic cruising

[dskira]

Originally Posted by apex1

The alternative was engine room aft and vee drive gear, but I do´nt like the weight so far aft and the angle of engine and shaft. Too low air intake and exhaust and no inside access (extremely important for me).

Width has to be greater due to some points I will not give up. The eng. room must have access from the inside (from deck too), that means there has to be a corridor. Because I like to sleep as close to the center of pitch and roll as possible and I like to have a second, small cabin with single bunks as a "heavy weather accommodation" near center of movement too. (try to sleep in a king size bed at sea state 6 or higher) Thats both below salon. Means width....
All the main deck MUST be a walkaround deck. When you ever have worked on a other one, with a line or a fender in your hands, you will immediately understand what I am talking.
The wheelhouse is quite a large one (bit shorter as shown), and has a pilot berth and a WC! On a fully crewed vessel you do´nt need that, but with "family crew", on your first all night watch, you know pretty soon the value of a bridgedeck loo. Thats all weight....

These are very valuable reasons. V drive for me as no place on a boat like you want to do. They are noisy (in my experience, perhaps they are better now) and it is difficult to inspect the coupling shaft/gear if the V is not separated from the engine. In case the V gear is separated you have one more shaft. I see that at as a loosing situation.
And of course as you mention, the weight on the aft end, it not help the performance by bad weather.
The sleeping accommodation I know exatly what you mean. I concure complitly.
Yes walk around deck is mendatory, so many peoples do not understand that, so many boat are with what they call "full beam" cabin. It is a wrond way to design a proper vessel.
you are a true sailor Richard, I never doubted about that!
The loo at proximity to the helm, I like that, make a lot of sense. Saw that only in one vessel, I can't remember the name, it was long time ago, it was a offshore fishing boat! They are clever!
Probably other yacht had them, I don't know.
I understand your reserve about the engines. A last comment and I will not come back on this subject. The torque at 400 rpm is phenomenal, you do not need a 500 KW a 250 Kw will suffice. On the down side they are very slow to respond, you need a shaft brake, and they need a lot of air to breath. That's it for the engines!
Of course the boat been larger, the specifiactions you are asking are more easier to achieve. And the market seams more open for larger vessel.
Cheers
Daniel

[apex1]

Originally Posted by dskira

Uncomfortable motion was another aspect, and of course a CPP would not be possible! But I sacrifice the galley before I sacrifice a CPP!

As a aside, the small chamber is not "designed" to be guest accommodation, but on short trips will serve that too.

I allways asked me what are the people diong in a full beam bedroom? dancing?

I had it once on a fully crewed boat and will not miss it since. Only one design I know of shows that feature, a Dave Gerr design of a true classic. I found some pictures.

I have no reserve about those beefy engines, quite the opposite! I have had two of those monsters in my old Museum ships. So lets go ahead discussing it!
The slow responding is not a problem, I do´nt need a shaft break. CPP !!!
ER ventilation and air intake are quite often a big problem on yachts. Not so here, look at these stacks. Each is more than 1,4 m² and they are not there for decoration.

Just got the information, that Bukh/Callesen in Aabenraa does not produce the Callesens anymore! A pity. Now my yard will ask in Belgium too.

Regards
Richard

Drawings are copyright Dave Gerr Design!!! I hope he will not mind.

[dskira]

Right I forget the CPP. This is sad for Callesen. A lot of large tug boat here use the Wastila but the average size one is Cat.
I like the Dave Gerr design. He has a certain touch, always a very clear design. His knoweldge is almost phenomenal, the man is an encyclopedie by himself

Cheers
Daniel

[dskira]