Offer: true go anywhere Trawler to build "side by side"

[Ad Hoc]

Richard

Not sure which Class you're going to go for, but there is a new "Winterisation of Ships" coming out from LR. Your category would be "moderate" defined as: seasonal duration in cold temperatures. The rules give guidance for operating in cold temperatures and hence definition of "temp" for the area of operation and thus, the appropriate grade of steel.

[M-Sasha]

Originally Posted by whoosh

I have 16 larger alloy hull in the water, some of them are unnattended for months, and some of them are now quite old, one nearly 25 years, with no problems
I think there is much hearsay bandied about with al al, and until you have built, owned and upkept such, there hearsay is all it is
one yard that has won awards for best superyacht in Monaco, I think twice, who i used to have close connections with, put 300000 man hours into the engineering systems alone on a 150 footer(sailing) so there were many systemss your vessel will not have
properly finished (yacht class) 60 footer, may take 20000 and thats not a fast build
there is a crowd near you called Cobra yachts, they are doing a very big expedition yacht in steel, and do really big wooden Gulets, may be worth a look there
[url]http://www.cobrayachting.com/[url]

Whoosh, that was very clear for me!

And we can end the discussion by a simple fact, my yard has today stated* to be not able to build in Al/ Al so, steel Al is the way to go, or we leave the project.
* as to GL standards

Not so for you?

And I have my doubts that you can instruct Richard in efficient boatbuilding. His shops produce about hundred yachts per year, that sums up to one thousand tons or more. When he is building his own yacht, with four or five (I have forgotten) yards in his background he has evry trade in house and synergy effects you probably cannot even dream of. They made a 53ft motoboat in ahurry, to replace a burned out newbuilt, 3 years ago at 7,5kg per manhour! To pretty good international yacht standard. I had the great opportunity to work for him at that time and know that for sure. When his staff needs one year to make a 90ft yacht for theyr "Patron" they dawdle.
And to your statement about 300.000 manhours and systems these Trawler yachts will not have, you are dead right, carbon masts seem to be senseless here.
Sasha

[dskira]

We have the profile, we have the material of construction, we have the main specs, we have the targueted price and the targueted time of construction.

And we have in my opinion a darn good thread.

The profile is for me splendid, I love it, rugged but civilized.
It seams in this design the convergent point it the pilothouse, it show, with that type of pilothouse and mass distribution, a serius all weather type of vessel. The offshore tug styling is superbly done, going from commercial inspiration for yacht is not an easy task. Very few succeded.
I like this profile because it is "complete" and "fluid" it do not have discrepencies. We see often an exercise of style for the bow, and a stern designed by somebody else. I will not give exemples because it will take to much space
The car designer Ghia used to say: anybody can design a great front, (Beside Edsel Ford of course) very few knows how to design the back

I had the great opportunity to work for him at that time and know that for sure

Sasha, you know better than all of us what Richard is capable of.
Are you going back working with him if the project start? Just curius, I hope you don't mind if I ask.
Daniel

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by whoosh

I have 16 larger alloy hull in the water, some of them are unnattended for months, and some of them are now quite old, one nearly 25 years, with no problems
I think there is much hearsay bandied about with al al, and until you have built, owned and upkept such, there hearsay is all it is

I have to disagree with you.. Thou ally boat is safe and soundly built there's allways a risk if the next boat on the pier has fucked up wiring.. not a big risk but anyways...
Oops.. sorry Richard, no more ally

[apex1]

Sasha you are a chatterbox! Why did´nt you post my adress too? And I own only one yard, to make that clear. Some others just work for me.

Daniel. We have the profile, we have the material of construction, we have the main specs, we have the targueted price and the targueted time of construction.

Yes we had Daniel, but I guess we need to give her some more beam. The hull was not designed to have the superstructure shown here, it had a lower profile. Although I do´nt like to go wider (cost, roll acceleration etc) I fear we must.

[apex1]

Originally Posted by Ad Hoc

Not sure which Class you're going to go for, but there is a new "Winterisation of Ships" coming out from LR. Your category would be "moderate" defined as: seasonal duration in cold temperatures. The rules give guidance for operating in cold temperatures and hence definition of "temp" for the area of operation and thus, the appropriate grade of steel.

John, I mentioned that in the opening post

classed +100 A5, E2, to IACS

in this case GL.
My German guys say "Dillinger Hütte" E 36 GL (EH 36 is LR spec) for plating, and D 36 for HP frames. this one:

both TM

And we have to redo the complete hull for Holland profile...................................bingo!
When sacrificing the bulb we can as well give her ARC1 (GL), because framing has to be the same for E (icegoing) and the "icestringer" is the same. I did know that. Just the reinforced stem is extra, but that was what I wanted anyhow. So, class will probably be +100 A5, ARC1 GL
Not much left from "Trawler", but that was a misleading label anyway.
Ok, then lets make a Icebreaker (I feel like coming home).


the steel:

[Ad Hoc]

Richard, I saw that in the post, i just wasn't sure with Class, but you're a true patriot, GL

It may well be worth approaching those guys with the vac-pak stuff to see whether they have obtained or will obtain Class certs. If not, it may pay you to do this yourself, then you own the cert. Could become a little money earner in the long run!

[dskira]

Originally Posted by whoosh

Sasha Privet

Sasha what I do know about Richard was told to myself in privacy
and I am not about to post that in here
poka poka
Danial, my oldest friend had Robert Clark draw him a 32 footer, in which he went to visit Clark, via Cape Horn
They talked lots about Carita So elegent
Somewhere on this site I posted pics of her

I see so many pc designs where the sheer looks all wrong, in fact when io draw a sheerline in cad, I tip the screen over and try sight along it as I would a sheer on paper
Some people I know draw the lines old way then transfer to CAD

I worry about Richards boat, , will she be chined, or not, a round hull with clipper effect is possible at that length, I could plate that is 8 weeks more(one man) than it would take to do a chined boat We must look at resale
Unless we are rich we have to think, not so much what WE want , but the market wants

This is a very early projection. To be afraid is not the point, the point is to share between us our values and knoweldge or experience to help Richard building the perfect boat. Do you know many professional who are willing to expose their ideas, goal and project on a web paltform to be critisized? It take a lot of balls I tell you. We have to respect that with constructive comments. I do not know if you can plate her chined or bilge rounded in 8 weeks, months or years, again it is not the point.
Yachting is of course about money, but customer respect what the owner of the shipyard will built for himself and stand for his ideas, more that a glossy brochure showing a bikini girl in the bathtub, or with a apron pretending she is in the kitchen
By the way, if you have a problem with some members, please keep it private. Inuendoes are ennoying.
And yes I admire very much Robert Clark. He was a gentlemen.
Now my favorit part: the yacht.
My turn to project and give an opinion: beam is a bad thing. It is always possible to avoid to much beam. Beam raise the displacement for a given draft, good draft is one of the most important factor in offshore cruising, beam raise the scantling of the deck, as it raise the weight of the decks, beam need more power to pass thru a very bad sea. But of course lack of beam can generate high period of roll, very unconfortable. A great beam stress the hull to much, and can generate a lack of period of roll, as unconfortable as to much.
This is not for me to say, but I will ask the NA to give me different scenarios with the existing beam. the superstructures are not that high, you can add a little more draft if necessary.
I think at that point I will start a weight estimate to see where you stand.
I find always usefull to do a weight estimate at the beginning, even if its a sketches as a departure of the project. Going with average scantling weight, known machinery and tankage weight and joinery evaluation weight, it is not to much trouble.
This is as I said my very personal opinion, and yes I am biaised I like less beam and the 4.55 of the project as now, is very good. Even 5 can be acceptable.
But as go the story, this is my opinion and ................you know
Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

Daneil

Well put. I raised the L/B issue; while this may appear to be the norm, a higher L/B ratio will greatly improve powering and seakeeping. The slight negative affects can be offset by proper design, ie bilge keels, and a sensible VCG, if approached properly from the outset of the prelim phase.

As for "..I find always usefull to do a weight estimate at the beginning.."..is there any other way??...spoken like a true professional.

We don't do any design work without estimating the first weight. It dictates so much of the design....amateurs do this last, as they like to focus upon the hull form calculations from endless softwares, why, because this is the only measurable to give some "credence" to their 'design'.

Design is a multidisciplinary affair, but the most important is weight and should be top of the list for any design spiral.

[apex1]

[quote=Ad Hoc;294243]

Richard, I saw that in the post, i just wasn't sure with Class, but you're a true patriot, GL

Hmm, jah, you know when it comes to iceclass DNV or GL ja? The Brits don´nt know much about ice, the do´nt even have it in their Whisky. (Thats clever, a Laphroaig with ice is dead).

It may well be worth approaching those guys with the vac-pak stuff to see whether they have obtained or will obtain Class certs. If not, it may pay you to do this yourself, then you own the cert. Could become a little money earner in the long run!

Did I say you´re clever?

[quote=dskira;294247]

chined or bilge rounded in 8 weeks, months or years

Centraalstaal does it in 8hrs when I´m in a hurry, and the trucks to Turkey need two days.

beam is a bad thing. It is always possible to avoid to much beam. Beam raise the displacement for a given draft, good draft is one of the most important factor in offshore cruising, beam raise the scantling of the deck, as it raise the weight of the decks, beam need more power to pass thru a very bad sea. But of course lack of beam can generate high period of roll, very unconfortable. A great beam stress the hull to much, and can generate a lack of period of roll, as unconfortable as to much.

Fully concur, and I do´nt like the uncomfortable roll acceleration of beamy boats.

Even 5 can be acceptable.

The 4,5 is about where we will end I guess, and give her a bit more draught instead. That way we will get her in balance again.
By now we are in the 100 tonnes ballpark and I would like to stay there.
Resale value might be a issue for any partner building with me, for me it is not! I am a keeper, not a trader and this will be my final boat, I´m sure.

Thank you both for your input.
Richard

And

Originally Posted by mark775

I know they are completely different but, to me, reminiscent, just the same...

Sorry Mark, had forgotten to reply. Yes they are quite different. Do you know our Tugboat Ballet in Hamburg?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q98RJ2qfwZk

Richard

[dskira]

I would like to give my own feeling about the "resale value"
I don't think it realy exist on a yacht. When you built on that range of price and up it is very often a one person dream. This dream is often shattered because for some strange reason, the owner feel the need to justifie his or her expensive buy. The justification is very often the resale value. It happened more than once in my case, even with samller amount sometime.
A yacht is sometime designed for charter purpose, or both personal and charter, and has to own its keep, and perhaps the resale value can be slightly higher than a typical personal yacht. These yacht are more and more over stuffed of unnecessary "decor" to please their corporate clients, and when they hit the market for sale, the price go down anyway.
Buying a yacht should be a complete selfish journey, and more the yacht is "athipic" designed with a great sense of personal achievement, more it will appeal the next client. I saw some great yacht in the same family for 40 or more years, I don't think one second they told the builder: the resale value will be good? No they said: I WANT a yacht like this and that. Period.
Look at glossy magazine, page after page of countless yacht for sale, some with a splendid "resale value" been on these pages for years. When they sell a boat, the price is never disclosed, and that its not because is high.
What we sell as a builder or designer is not for everybody, face it. It is always a project with a lot of money and risks involve. It keep a fantastic and inventive people of a sector of the industry working, and that because we have great patrons. The brokerage company make money by the numbers of yacht for sale, not by the "resale value" of each one. And every years you have more yacht for sale, than peopke who buy them.
Off course I was talking yacht, not commercial vessels.
As always it is my two cents
Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

dskira

You're quiet right. These boats are dreams, and as such one dream for one person. For another 'wealthy' dreamer, it is not his dream, why spent lots of money on something that is not exact, when I have plenty of money to make my own personal dream??

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but a good point was the "Aussie Rules", for Greg Norman. Bought for $50m, sold 9 months later for $30m

If you're worried about resale, you haven't got the money to build the dream start with..!!

[dskira]

Ad Hoc,
Thank you for understanding and backing the concept of the weight estimate at the beginning of anny project. It is so overlook it is umbelivable. And from a professional like you, it is an honor.
I read a lot of your posts thru the differents threads, very insightful, to the point and very informative.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but a good point was the "Aussie Rules", for Greg Norman. Bought for $50m, sold 9 months later for $30m

You are absolutly right. I do not know if Norman thought it was easy to make a buck with megayacht, but anyway whatever the reason it didn't work so well. And it's normal. It is difficult and must be kept simple: built your dream for yourself, period. What will happen after, who knows!

If you're worried about resale, you haven't got the money to build the dream start with..!!

Of course your last comment resume perfectly the situation!
Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

dskira
"..Thank you for understanding and backing the concept of the weight estimate at the beginning of anny project. It is so overlook it is umbelivable..."

It simply amazes me, the amount of people that come on this site saying, ooooooo, i have a great idea what about X or Y, and so the debate ensues with endless computer plots and colour graphics to sound all important. Fine, whatever floats your boat!!

All it does, is just show that they are not professional designers/naval architects and do not wish to turn their idea into reality, they just wish to, well....you can fill in the blanks!. Because the first thing one must do, is the weight estimate. Nothing and I mean nothing will work without a weight estimate and a realistic one too. Lots of built in margins...the weight of a boat never gets lighter...it always get heavier!

Which is why Richard needs to make sure his boat has a proper weight estimate done now, before proceeding down any further to the other "what if" scenarios or detailing.

(Thanks for the kind comments. Not everyone agrees with your opinion of me...you are in a minority!)

[apex1]

Originally Posted by Ad Hoc

(Thanks for the kind comments. Not everyone agrees with your opinion of me...you are in a minority!)

No, he´s not. The majority has not the balls to agree, thats it.