Aluminum, welding equipment.

[Tigrik]

Hi All!

We're starting new project, 38' trawler yacht.
Maximum thickness - 3/8". 5/16" and 3/16" in general.

As welding equipment we've selected following:

1. Miller XMT 350MPa (450A, pulsed MIG, DC TIG)
Because of amperage, pulsed MIG + 450A TIG is a good option.
2. Miller D70DX wire feeder.
Because of full featured sequence control (pre-flow, post flow, run-in, etc)
3. Miller Spectrum 875 plasma cutter.
All parts will be pre-cut by CNC. So, it should be enough for our applications.

Any suggestions about equipment selection? Really need advice if it's correct selection Especially - will we really need full featured sequence control in wire feeder?

One more dumb question Should we consider a TIG instead of MIG for this project? It's a project for me and my family, so quality is important.

Thank you!

[Guest62110524]

privet, I know StP well, but you do not talk like a Russian? what are these imperial sizes you give?
no never tig, plates or welds to plate, use only for small things like rails, the distortion will kill your boat
you have good choice but the gun is VERY important
am using a Castolin Arc^2 3000
is an OEM product of Fronius, similar to TPS 2700,
270 amps. pulse also when spot welding
4 step program with spec. start- and crater fill options for alu
Got a pushpull from Fronius, 10 meter conduit, that last para was copied from another place, but everyone down here is using them with great success, especially important the gun is made by same people, that is very rare ,see my gallery and website, really there has been tonnes written in here already abt welding, search welding a steel boat, and welding frames to plate, demystified, recent threads active

[Tigrik]

Originally Posted by whoosh

privet, I know StP well, but you do not talk like a Russian? what are these imperial sizes you give?

Boatdesign is US web-site, right? So, I hope imperial units will be much preferable for peoples here.

A thicker plate (in general) is 10mm... Mostly 5 & 8 mm.

Originally Posted by whoosh

no never tig, plates or welds to plate, use only for small things like rails, the distortion will kill your boat

It was a "dumb" question. I thought about it but now I have an answer from somebody else

Originally Posted by whoosh

Got a pushpull from Fronius

Is push-pull required for aluminum? Or it just "desired" and project can be done with push gun only? I understand that in case of push gun only the length of gun hose will be much shorter, but I decide to use separate feeder to solve this problem. Also, this feeder have special u-grooved rolls for aluminum :/ Will it be enough? :/

Here is the link to feeder: D70DX - 4 drive rolls.

[Guest62110524]

no pushing only can not be done, you would need to hang feeder up above weld, you could not feed up, or around bends, your wire slows, your volts stay constant(on umprogrammed welders) your amps drop, your tip burns back
you need pulling gun and before you start it sounds like you need a lot of practise
When winter finishes should I come St P? show you just make sure you have lots of mosquito spraylots nationalities here, most of us are on metric, only North America is on imperial can you get long wide plates there? would like to know all abt boatbuilding in Ru, I have been much to Kherson adn Nikolaev , UA, they are really skilled in wood work there too, but Fazisi the Ru entrant in the Whitbread al al boat was bad real bad, why don't you sleep? it is not White Nights yet

[drmiller100]

wow, some pretty fancy welders.
for sure you will need a tig for tight areas, fuel tanks, fine work, thin metals, something.
grinders, sanders, skill saw, jigsaw, chop saw, stuff to build a jig, die grinder, some big hammers.

sure will be a big project!!!

[Guest62110524]

Originally Posted by drmiller100

wow, some pretty fancy welders.
for sure you will need a tig for tight areas, fuel tanks, fine work, thin metals, something.
grinders, sanders, skill saw, jigsaw, chop saw, stuff to build a jig, die grinder, some big hammers.

sure will be a big project!!!

funny that, in 28 years building alloy boats and 10 steel, i never had use for tig, esp with todays pulse welders, HOWEVER if your machine has dc TIG it is darned useful for ss tig work, I think the welder I recommended has such

[Tigrik]

Originally Posted by whoosh

no pushing only can not be done

Bad news The only suitable push-pull welder they offering here is Millermatic 350P (push-pull, 400А). But it's a 82 kg. :/ It will be hard to send to RU :/ Can you take a look if it's what I need? Here is PDF

Originally Posted by whoosh

around bends, your wire slows, your volts stay constant(on umprogrammed welders) your amps drop, your tip burns back
you need pulling gun and before you start it sounds like you need a lot of practise

You mean synergetic programs for welders? This welder (XMT) have a sinergetic programm... I belive
Yeah... I definitely need a practice... But, all of us have been started from such dumb questions I think

Originally Posted by whoosh

can you get long wide plates there? would like to know all abt boatbuilding in Ru

It's hard to find long plates here... But it's possible by request.
Boatbuilding in RU, and boating in general, still in "contraceptive" state It means it's hard to maintain self-motivation to do anything and struggle against our eggheaded officials Especially due to current economy... But we trying to look forward

Originally Posted by whoosh

why don't you sleep? it is not White Nights yet

I'm in NY for a while... What's why I'm selecting from US equipment

FRONIUS are pretty expensive... It cost up to $2500 more than Millermatic 350P with delivery to Finland

[Guest62110524]

oh ok, look , I can not advise on the later millers, i have some older straight migs, with hobart guns,
but you must wait for one of the americans like welder/fitter to come online And you must have a push pull, the welder I told you of will weld .6mm plate so it can go really lo in voltage, and thats with 1.2mm wire
I Know how hard it is in Ru, for the new canal river boat on the website we have plates here 10m long 2.2 wide from France, if you ahve a chat programme be only to happy to talk to you, poka poka
there is a guy comes here he has miller stuff, WYNAND, he is a steel worker, but he knows his inverter welders

[Tigrik]

Originally Posted by whoosh

you must wait for one of the americans like welder/fitter to come online And you must have a push pull
...
there is a guy comes here he has miller stuff, WYNAND, he is a steel worker, but he knows his inverter welders

Ok, will wait...

Originally Posted by whoosh

if you ahve a chat programme be only to happy to talk to you

Google Talk?

[Guest62110524]

see my profile for chat or yes google
what is your gmail?
this is their quote
4.075.095.638 FRONIUS TRANSPULSE SYNERGIC 2700 WELDER 1.00 12,765.00 $12,765.00
Your Pulse mig welding package will come with:
10mtr Push/pull Torch Pack, 45deg Neck, Push/Pull PCB, Earth lead and clamp, 3phase plug, Primary Lead
4mtr, Electrical Test and Tag Label, 1.2mm Rollers to suit Aluminium Wire, 2 year Warranty, Fully Supported
with back-up service, Phone and On-site Technical and Welding Support, Argon Regulator, Gas hose 1.2mtr,
au dollars, really nothing changed 30 years ago same price, transformer welder, big heavy , wire feeder pulling gun

[Wynand N]

I must confess that I not on par with the latest aluminum technology, and Whoosh and Fitter/welder are the best guys to advice on that.

My experience is mostly on steel and my Miller a decade old... However, any pulse arc inverter Mig should be an excellent machine. I had bought a few of Chinese build inverter Migs and to be honest, better machines than my older Miller period. The same with the couple of 200A inverter arc welders - excellent machines, small, light, portable and can burn a 4.00mm electrode 24/7 without any ill effects.

But it look like you have some serious machine there....

[welder/fitter]

Tigrik,
Contrary to suggestions, I am not an "expert" on what you're looking at, and would defer to "M&MOvenden", "kmorin", and others. Having said this, I'd suggest pretty much what "Whoosh" has previously stated. Though most of my experience with aluminum is with a spool gun, I have used a push-pull gun on a few occasions, recently, and would highly recommend one. I am more of a Lincoln fan, than Miller, though I wouldn't say that one is better than the other.

I'd suggest an XR-Aluma-Pro gun, air-cooled version. I believe that they can be hooked to the 12RC suitcase, which will allow you better portability. The compatibility between the XMT350 w/MPa and the 12RC is something that I am not sure of, so you may have to go with the X-TREME 12VS version for a suitcase. A suitcase will give you easier access and can be easily positioned to keep your whip straight, a very important consideration for running aluminum, even with a push-pull gun.

BTW, I'm Canadian, not American("Not that there's anything wrong with that!")

Hope this helps.
Mike

[Tigrik]

Originally Posted by Wynand N

I had bought a few of Chinese build inverter Migs and to be honest, better machines than my older Miller period.

What kind of Chinese welders you've tried? We have a couple trademarks like Blueweld, Prestige and so on ("Italian Chinese") here in Russia. They offering more features (like 2T, 4T, pulse-on-pulse) for less money... but I'm beware of quality. I've seen few models inside - looks like a clew of wires :/ Do you have any suggestions on quality of Chinese tools you've dealed with?

We also have a few european brands: Kemppi (Finland), Fronius, etc.. Where is no any doubts about quality, but that's a completely different prices (>30-50% higher than typical Chinese brands).

We have Lincoln Electric dialer here (in Moscow)... but for myself Miller looks more preferable. The only difference between Lincoln & Miller (PowerMig 350 & Millermatic 350) is what Lincoln have built-in TIG, but have 2 drive rolls in feeder instead of 4 drive rolls in Miller (no TIG in Miller also).

4 drive feeder in Miller should work much better with aluminum, IMO. And I can live without TIG, as I think separate AC/DC TIG is much more preferable for aluminum.

Originally Posted by welder/fitter;

I'd suggest an XR-Aluma-Pro gun, air-cooled version. I believe that they can be hooked to the 12RC suitcase, which will allow you better portability.

Where is no any comments on web-site what push-pull gun will fit to suitcase feeders. Even more, in docs for push-pull gun wrote what it's suitable only to XR control (which is separate wire feeder for aluminum) or Millermatic 350P. XR control feeder isn't an option for me as it's not clear if it can feed anything but aluminum. In additional, M350P have an enhanced sequence control features, like crater & run-in timers, etc.

So, again... What is more suitable for aluminum: XMT + suitcase/separate feeder (S70DX?) with short standard gun, or MM350P with long push-pull gun?
Also, why an air-cooled gun but water cooled?

[welder/fitter]

Personally, for working in and around a boat, I'd prefer a suitcase. Better to wind weld cable around corners, than your whip, when running Al wire. You didn't mention how deep your pockets were, so I thought I'd suggest air(push-pull gun), because you'll need a source for your plasma.

If you could find out which chinese factory is building the inverters, it could be of great value. When I lived in Asia, I had nothing but grief with chinese hand tools & have found that the cheap "made in China" grinders, that are sold in western Canada, are garbage. Having said this, my Lincoln portable runs as well as my old Hobart and - much to my dismay - has a tag on the back, which states "product of China". If the distributor is giving you a decent warranty, why not save the money & go chinese?

[orcaboatsaust]

Tigrik
Been welding aluminium for over 20years, sold Miller and Fronius for 3yrs as technical rep.. hope I can offer some help
I have &use Miller xmt 350 with optima pulse because of auto line ,restricted to single phase ,22a wire feeder ,and run a 10ft mig gun ,teflon liner ,5183 grade wire,it is a great machine,I dont suffer from feed problems at all ,hanging the wire feeder is good idea but not always possible, I think Miller do a push /pull.called the edge, down under ,your choice of the 70dx feeder is goodFronius tps2700 is the best. push/pull gun is a great advantage especially in tight areas. the Fronius also has dual pulse or pulse on pulse allowing for tig finish from a mig. I agree seperate ac/dc tig is very handy for intricate work . The xmt has a beautiful dc tig arc , as does the fronius. Fronius has built in pulse where miller xmt is external.
for plasma you cant beat Hypertherm ,USA made ,been making them for over 40yrs just plasma. miller is ok but Hypertherm is the best.Dont touch the chinese,no duty cycle and the money you saved will cost you in the end .If money tight XMT ,22A,Optima pulse ,start off with 10ft gun than maybe add push/pull down the track , to stretch the dollars. good luck