acceptable filler wire for 5083 h116

Interesting. Ad Hoc posts charts, specifications and engineering data. A metal sales company has a description full of words capable of all sorts of different interpretations and some statements that are flat wrong.

Yet, Ad Hoc's posting is codswallop.

I don't think so. If you're so sure, why don't you post *engineering data* not anecdotes showing just where his statements are incorrect.

FWIW I'm not in any way disputing that what you've personally done isn't adequate to its requirement. Just if you want to toss terms like 'codswallop' about, you'd better be able to explain just what you mean, and use numbers to do it.

PDW

 

pdwiley, yofish has the common reaction of someone who has been proved incorrect. To inform yofish Ad Hoc has a long, very long experience of design, engineering, and shipbuilding in aluminium (English and world wide spelling). Not canoes and prams but very special high performance boats. He is without contest the most qualified in the forum in this matter...
Alas, a lot of people are more sensitive to the songs of the salesmen than to the brutal facts of cold engineering. I call that the Apple factor.

 

apples and oranges!

Wow, it always seems to come down to a point of view based on the work done by one person is supposed to be valid for another entire circumstance!

Ad Hoc's clientele obviously has to pay attention to 'who's who' (documented training and qualifications) and "what's what" (mill certs, metallurgical spec.s weld training and tests...) because his clients want AND pay for that level of 'insurance'.

Not to mention that the insurance companies (Lloyds and all) probably have good reasons to expect everyone involved to toe their line in order to get the financing and insurance to allow ships and other 'big boats' or ferry boats to even be built!

Ok, fine, and I'm all for Standards Societies or Classes as used in other countries but isn't the original poster a home builder with his first build?

I know Yofish's experiences are not quite in the same bank financed world of boat building, and weld tests are 30 years of people fishing your boats and coming home safe after a good season. Note the difference in point of view?

If a supplier here were told to provide Material Test Reports (mill run quality certifications on a specific lot of metal's chemical pedigree) - they'd think you were nuts or needed to sober up. Is that the 'best' in the world class? Nope.

Is that way it is? Yep. Can we change it buying little 1/2 tonne orders of metal. Not so much.

If we took an order to a supplier for the mass of metal in one of the larger boats Ad Hoc's office produces, we'd turn that supplier into a lap dog, sitting up, drooling and barking on command! The volume difference (100 x) allows the insistence on meeting quality documentation where the contracts very likely call out a submittable process and QA review that means payments are withheld and perhaps penalties due, if the MTRs are not timely?

That is fantasy-land for a one-off skiff builder.

What is applicable to a new builder in his first homemade boat? World class spec.s? Well maybe not as much as having as few leaks as possible and having the welds hold together! We're not dealing with a shipyard or 10k hour welding tradesmen, we're dealing with a home builder in his first go off the dock!

Seems like we're a little bit a field in what's relevant? Do we get to assume a low hour welder who's warped his topsides widely due to new skills being applied to the weld- is going to be able to enjoy the difference between the various alloys' POTENTIAL physical properties when he's not even a trained welder working in fully supervised weld conditions?

In other words, why are we in this somewhat off-point back and forth about the various metal alloys usefulness or potential properties when the 'bailing wire in the log chain' is a demonstrably reduced skill set of a new builder?

yofish has made a living designing (because the clients wouldn't pay for that and have not) then building, then fishing in a series of plural dozens of boats for four decades and that experience makes the 'board room' considerations of skiff building a little bit less than critical.

Ah Hoc works with people that need his credentials, his associates credentials and experiences at a much more 'refined' level. Those clients don't care if Ad Hoc has welded a hundred skiffs, yofish's client wouldn't talk to him without his 'street creds' of building and fishing what he's done.

One's clients want what these two are offering them. But the converse is not true, so both are the product of what their clients want, but the two client groups are not interchangeable, neither are the points of view.

Both are talking past the other; if you have to satisfy YOUR customer, you do it: or you're not in business.

If Ad Hoc's clients were yofish's then Ad Hoc's business would be too top-heavy and burdensome and he'd be out of business. But then if Yofish had to make a big 3D yacht presentation to other engineers, bankers, owner's and their lawyers in his 3piece suit... well, I hope they'd all have to accept a few sketches with a hull model and his Carhart welder's overalls because that's all they get.

This back and forth where apples are important but oranges will do... isn't really getting much boat building done. Lots of passion but little purpose in my view?

Cheers,
Kevin Morin
Kenai, AK

 

Kevin, with respect, I think you've missed the point of my postings. Firstly recall the OP was asking about filler wire, and then that he's read that 5083 is an inferior alloy and more brittle.

Thus, as I previously noted, I am providing information. Not emotions or subjective opinions of alloys. The OP wants/needs hard facts, that is what was provided. To paraphrase myself:

In other words, whether it is a home build by a first timer doing his first job in his back yard or an experienced high speed ferry builder, hard independent facts do not change. Only opinions and what to do about it. Again, it is then the choice of the OP what is or is not relevant to THEM...not me. But without said facts...it becomes emotive and subjective.....just as it has done!

 

Kevin, unless you're going to argue that in your alternate reality, numbers mean something different from the reality that Ad Hoc inhabits, your argument is basically rubbish.

The question was about the engineering strengths & quantitative values of certain classes of aluminium. Ad Hoc answered in a polite and informative fashion, giving checkable numbers with their sources.

Yofish responds with 'codswallop'. No numbers, no nothing.

This has nothing to do with differing clientele and everything to do with one party wanting to stay in their alternate reality. And it's not Ad Hoc.

I don't care who has what clientele or who has built what. I care a lot about accurate and verifiable information and on that basis, it's pretty obvious who should be believed here.

PDW

 

Hey! More codswallop! In my entire career I have NEVER, EVER been sold any specific aluminum product by a salesman. I've always been the director of the material that I buy. I don't know what world you cats live in but it's not the same as mine. What does that have to do with anything?

This is what I think: propellerheads think that what us WOGS do in our backyard is beneath those that have 'class' and needs to be corrected. Just because Ad Hoc has a peculiar and rare case of Tourette's that replaces 'f__k' with 'class' does not mean he's correct or right in the way to build a canoe, as you say.

When anyone presents a 'simple' solution that is hardly simple and does it casually as if it was ordinary, I take offense. His 'simple' cine detail made me, and would make anyone that builds 'prams', laugh out loud. Anyone that would take that assembly as good advice for a 19' skiff, made of .100" and .125" material, would be led down a path of exquisite and unnecessary misery. Pure unadulterated bologna. And please, don't even bring to the argument if it would be better served that it were made of 5083 over 5086!

 

A little more about this nonsense about aluminum salesmen pushing a certain product: am I the only one that realizes that there are only certain alloys that even us proles have come to understand are the most useful in a salt environment? No salesman has slyly suggested (even knowing my low pedigree and crossed eyes) that I buy some of this bitchin' 7000 series AL that he will give me a SCREAMING deal on. Not to mention a butt load of 2000 series which Boeing rejected in 1943, that I could get for pennies! Seriously, I sadly shake my head. Count up all alloys available; it's not exactly like choosing a refrigerator. There aren't even tens of choices.

 

In my own business, I have run into this many times. Purist views and The engineering process almost operating in complete contempt of craftsmanship and trade craft. The two bases of knowledge are vitally important and equally deserving of reverence. I would go to sea in a craft constructed by a person with 100 hulls under their belt and some serious performance history without hesitation, and with no feeling that I needed to understand the modulus issues associated with the stress v strain curves of the weld intersections. Perhaps this is poor reasoning on my part.. I just feel more confident with folks that clearly show their creative intellect through craft work. I am in awe at the catalog of talent here.. Man..

 

A few thoughts on why I think this discussion (of facts) is relevant, at least to me:

- As a hobbyist welder/ first time boatbuilder, I have spent a lot of time in the last 3+ years reading many posts on this, and several other boatbuilding sites, as well as reading Stephen Pollards "Boatbuilding with Aluminum, 2nd Edition" book - in hopes of gaining as much knowledge as I could to be informed in my quest to build a boat (again, as a hobbyist, and not a pro).

A lot of information and knowledge centers around building and welding techniques and much around proper material choice as well.
I believe that those involved in large design as well as those who have spent a lifetime building smaller craft 1st hand, likely with a lot of trial and error, both possess great levels of knowledge and experience, though mainly centered primarily around issues/ topics that affect their size and demands of builds.

As Kevin pointed out, the primary concern for me, or any newer aluminum (hobby) welder and builder is more the process, technique and execution of good quality welds over the material choice of 5083 or 5086.
And, similarly, Kevin or Yofish can certainly produce safe, rugged boats in either material.

- so why the concern - well, as I a new hobby builder , when I search out facts on manufacturer and supplier pages and forums, in helping to make a decision on material / alloy choice - I want to have the real facts so I can make an informed decision.

Would either 5083, 5086 or even 5052 be good enough for my build? Yes, but I chose to use one of the first two alloys over 5052. After reading about the superior strengths, higher corrosion resistance, I was ready to pay more for one of these (better) alloys.

But, as I searched locally, through several large suppliers for Marine grade 5083 or 5086, the best deal (per pound) came on 5083 H116. But, as I had read that 5083 was more brittle and had been told by one well known designer of small/ medium aluminum craft, that he spec’d 5086 over 5083 as it was “less brittle” I almost decided against the good-priced 5083 in favor of bringing in 5086 at an additional cost due to it being further away, etc.

Re: comments about listening to Salesmen – I think folks are taking that a bit too literally – I do not expect to listen to some slick talking salesman who really pushed me into a bad choice - but I believe that when I call local suppliers for price and availability on “Marine Grade” alloys, and for whatever reason they can only supply one alloy vs. the other (at least without huge transport costs), then I want to know how that alloys “fairs” against the other available (perhaps more costly) alloys so I can make a an informed decision.

I would imagine that in your local markets, aluminum boat building is so large that local suppliers would never think of quoting you a non-marine grade alloy. But, in my market, where aluminum boatbuilding is non-existent, then the supplier often does not have the experience to “recommend” one alloy over another, other than based on price and availability.

I could be wrong here, but previous to reading about the ASTM B928 standard (brought in around 2003 to prevent a future recurrence of non-suitable / non -fully tested alloys being used in boatbuilding) I thought that any 5083 or 5086 material was fine, and that the H32 vs. H116 was only to do with the amount of strain hardening and/or low heat stabilization afterwards.

I have recently read that 5083 H116 and H321 for example fall under ASTM B928 (tested for marine uses) whereas H32 only falls under the older ASTM B209 which is for more general (non-marine) construction uses. To me that is a big deal maybe everyone else knew that already, but as my suppliers quoted some 5083 H32 and I could have mistakenly bought that, due to price and/or availability, I would have been very disappointed later. Perhaps it would have held up fine under use, but why take the chance…..

 

Folks, don't forget that discussions like this also serve to increase the general knowledge of those who participate, and also of those who will read without participating.

So, I welcome all the engineering info which experienced and trained people like Ad Hoc can give to the forum, even when it is not relevant for my particular work. Because every info I get makes me richer (in a cultural sense), more informed and hence more able to make choices when I will have to make choices.

So rather than simply dismissing AH's charts and explanations just because they don't suit your particular needs at the moment, take them as a useful info which will enrich your knowledge and which might (who knows) serve you one day for one particular job you'll have to do...

Cheers

 

What did I miss on this thread? I can't find anyone dismissing any chart. If you're referring to me being dismissive, then yes, you are correct but I'm hardly dismissive of a chart. More like, dismissive of bad information. Hell, let me throw some charts of 5384 or 5454 against the wall and see if they stick! But wait! Those alloys are more expensive and hard to get! they are also stronger if you are interested in slowing down bullets and such BUT THEY ARE NOT BETTER material to build a boat out of.

There is absolutely no difference between arguing which makes a better boat, farbenglass vs. AL ,or whether a little 25' skiff is 'better' made out of one alloy over another. It depends on 'things'.

I do know that Nor'easter chap had better agonize most over the how his project is put together rather than what it's made of. And that, in this case, is an incontrovertible fact.

 

Hi Yofish. Is the Lands End Bar still on the Spit? I ended up trying whisky there for the first time in my young life. And ended up spending some time with a woman wearing rubber boots. Well she smoked a pipe and had a tiny bit of a beard too, but hey my youth and enthusiasm was inspiring!

Sorry for the small hijack.

 

I'll bet I know who the bearded one was and do you mean the Salty Dawg by chance? If not, both bars are still here. Tomorrow I'll be on the spit for to join the winter king salmon derby. Must have been some years ago you were here, I'm gonna guess 20-30?

This thread needs more small hijacks.

 

Almost 40 years. Ugh.

 

Note that there is an overlap in the specifications for 5086 and 5083. It is actually possible to get an alloy that meets both specifications, but 5083 is nominally stronger.

Either alloy should be IAW ASTM B928, which is specifically for marine use.