What's titanium worth to you?

Is titanium worth it?

Great marketing question.

But the simple answer is...

No.

 

Is tiatnium worth it

Yes, if you are wealthy and not stingy.


Top secret nuclear sub used to prove North Pole claim http://barentsobserver.com/en/security/top-secret-nuclear-sub-used-prove-north-pole-claim-29-10

dived to a depth of 2,5 to 3 kilometers and stayed submerged for 20 days, according to Izvestia. Due to the titanium hull and nuclear reactor, the submarine can stay much longer and much deeper than any other bathyscaphes.

 

http://barentsobserver.com/en/security/top-secret-nuclear-sub-used-prove-north-pole-claim-29-10

Frosty I live in the Udon Thani region

 

Yes you can't be stingy with top secret nuclear subs ..But only Governments buy these or Dr Evil.

You could cut back on bed linen and beverage holders.

 

Yes, if you are wealthy and not stingy.

An example is the box trailer I am making which has titanium torsions suspension that is half the weight needed to be lifted when removed from trailer inserts so yes it’s worth it if you have the cash to splash.
If made from stainless steel and the person is older you can strain your back also stainless does rust if not polished, people who do not want to spend can have that option or the cheaper chrome molybdenum steel model that rust and need to be rebought and replaced over time like all boat trailers .
I have made the rubber cords DIY replaceable because they do ware out and not like the titanium that would last several life times.
I have cut the cost down by using 6061 aluminium casings which have the rubber cords inserted to stop any friction with the titanium although the casings can made from titanium because the trailer box inserts are lined with Teflon for a tight fit and smooth release.

 

Put this in the context of the original post...

 

Titanium Sail Rings 2" Diameter
7/16" Thickness
Max. Safe Load: 22,050 lbs.
Rec. Safe Working Load: 11,025 lbs.
Unit Wt.: 3.1oz
Titanium Whole Rings are 40% stronger, 40% lighter than stainless steel and most importantly, titanium will never corrode, ever! So it saves you money and maintenance time. Stainless steel rings just cannot compete with titanium. Titanium rings are perfect for racing... stronger, lighter, faster!

 

this is not true, steel hulled subs can do the same thing, the reason they make them from Ti is to reduce the ability to detect the sub with devices designed to find steel subs. High strength alloy can make the hull as strong, or even stronger, than Ti. The use of Ti in subs is not so much to improve performance but to increase survivability, which is worth a lot in terms of military effectiveness during war time.

Izvestia, or other national media, is not exactly a reliable source. The US and other national players also make Ti subs, nothing new about that.

 

Frosty,

90% of the Fasteners at work (aircraft) are stainless. They typically don't crack at all, unless someone made a mistake and they are just too small.

Perhaps boat designers (some) just don't know enough to size them properly.

Maybe I made a mistake again, did you mean a stainless hull?

 

The claimed depth of 2.5 to 3 KM is at the crush depth for a 60's designed sub. 20 days is nothing for a nuke sub.

This claim could probably be done by any Nuke sub in the world. Nothing unusual.

The difficulty would be keeping warm.

 

Stumble,

I just heard Ti plate has gone down from $30/# to $19/#.

Is that true for the materials you are discussing?

Looks like parts should get somewhat cheaper.

Have you gotten a parts list from an actual sailboat manufacturer to price?

Personally for a homebuilt boat, Ti has no value to me.
But I have in my hand a bracket made from a stereo lith process out of 6-4 mill annealed material (looks just like a Nylon or other plastic rapid prototyping part except for color). Looks like a significant cost reduction - 30 - 50% for an aircraft part.

 

Upchurch,

What I would love to see, but haven't yet is a current parts list from a BOM that details what would need to be bought in stainless. So that I can price that list in stainless versus titanium.

I really wanted to keep this discussion away from the cost, but yes delivered cost for titanium parts has plummeted in the last few years. Unfortunately I can't publish our price data for commercial buyers, but for this order of 300 linear foot of 1"x.065 (50 kilos), but the price on this order was actually about 1/3 the price of retail 304 tubing, and 1/4 the price of retail 316 tubing.

Of course the numbers are more complicated than this because you have to take into account shipping, and retail markups, but titanium is most defiantly not out of the price range of a recreational boater in most circumstances. It may be a little more, but I have priced out items where our retail price was actually less than MSRP for a stainless comperable.

As for cost per kilo:
1) It is a bit deceptive when comparing stainless and titanium, simply because of the volume difference. For instance, a stainless bar that's 1/4"x1"x40" would weight in at around 2.87 pounds, while a titanium bar the same size would weight in at around 1.43 pounds. So if the titanium was twice the price per pound, the part would actually cost the same, since the weight of the steel is twice that of titanium.

2) mill costs for titanium have been coming down, and in the last few years that decline has been accelerating as more and more high efficiency mills have gone online, and more of the legacy chemical processing mills have been retired. There is also an economy of scale issue. When titanium was only used by the aero-space industry, there wasn't enough volume to drive prices down. This is somewhat of a catch-22 since price can't go down until volume goes up, and volume won't go up until price comes down. But we have finally passed the tipping point, where more and more consumption has driven prices down, and we are slowly creeping down in price.

3) the final thing that is driving price, is the world wide demand for chromium and copper has been going up rapidly. This means that the alloys using them like stainless, and bronze have gone up. As the price difference between high quality bronze and stainless versus titanium gets smaller, more and more people are switching, even if titanium may be more expensive for reasons related to strength, corrosion resistance, weight, ect... Simply because the cost difference isn't so much.

 

Join Date: Oct 2007
Rep: 1083 Posts: 1,358
Location: Arlington, WA-USA

this is not true, steel hulled subs can do the same thing, the reason they make them from Ti is to reduce the ability to detect the sub with devices designed to find steel subs. High strength alloy can make the hull as strong, or even stronger, than Ti. The use of Ti in subs is not so much to improve performance but to increase survivability, which is worth a lot in terms of military effectiveness during war time.

Izvestia, or other national media, is not exactly a reliable source. The US and other national players also make Ti subs, nothing new about that.



It’s a smaller sub for research and is said to be in the best in the small sub category ….. I know that larger subs are made to dive deeper and stay way longer underwater for war reasons also the cost may have some measure to do with steel versus titanium although I am not debating what you say.
A larger BS-136 is a rebuilt Delta-class submarine aimed at carrying smaller submarines, such as “Losharik” that can’t sail all by her own to remote locations like the East Siberia Sea.subs and maybe reducing weight on the smaller sub helps when freighted on larger sub
A fine example of Titanium thats not new is the blackbird 1964, Lockheed's SR-71 spy plane that could cruise at Mach 3.3 (2,180 mph) and 85,000 feet, realms previously touched only briefly by experimental rocket planes.
The Blackbird's extraordinary performance demanded extraordinary technology. Titanium alloy skin was necessary to resist the 600-degree temperatures caused by air friction at Mach 3. Skin panels had to have moveable joints to accommodate expansion and contraction with temperature changes. (The Blackbird literally grew several inches at Mach 3.)
At 2,193 mph, the SR-71 still holds the official world speed record for air-breathing aircraft. No aircraft has ever taken off under its own power and flown faster.

 

Our titanium fins, foils and trim tabs have proven remarkably superior to anything we ever built in stainless, aluminum or even steel. Over 20 years ..plus some.

But then there are many alloys of titanium..and few of them suitable for what we build. Or how we build.

 

I might of missed it in the past - what do you build?
What is special about how you build what you build?