What's titanium worth to you?

Is Titanium worth it?

Although my boat came with Ti. (snap)shackle's which some have some wear from rubbing against steel, I've been thinking of using Titanium for blocks I want to make; because it is light and strong, not corrosive and you can electrolytic color it beautifully.
I've had a little experience in working with Titanium (forging, sawing, cold-rolling) when learning for watchmaker and goldsmith. (frequently annealing was necessary).

In an article about Titanium getting cheaper in the long run, because of changing processes, were two videos about how Titanium was made.
It made me worried about the impact the making of Titanium has on the environment, not only the marine one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS9Vikcn-CI&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWyrzZh3We0&feature=player_embedded

 

What would you like me to address? Titanium in chemical fabrication plants has a few chemicals that it shouldn't be in contact with. Among them dry chlorine gas. Even a few ppm of oxygen or water eliminates the attack from chloride gas.

Titanium is also the most cathodic of structual materials, so galvanic corrosion can be a problem. But since it falls between carbon fiber and stainless the rate of corrosion is within the range of what the marine environment has been dealing with for years.

 

It depends on which process they were showing, but the one most refineries are moving to uses electrical anodes instead of chemical process to purify the metal, this is why the price is dropping. As with any energy intensive refining method the method used to create the electricity certainly could be an environmental concern.

However I would posit that having a part that won't have to be replaced because of corrosion problems means that it only needs to be built once. If the same part is made of stainless, the parts will need to be replaced regularly for corrosion concerns.

 

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/21813/ppuser/49990

This link above will show you a design I am now manufacturing in Gr 5 Ti-6Al-4V titanium which is a rubber cord torsions suspension that the torsion bar, torsions arm and the hubs and axle including the lug nuts and bolts are manufactured from Ti-6Al-4V which is an alpha-beta titanium alloy with medium to high strength, good corrosion resistance, none magnetic, low density (45% lighter than steel) and high elasticity... Typical yield strength is 827 MPa, tensile strength is 896 MPa, hardness 36 HRC.
Ti-6Al-4V has become the most widely used of all the titanium alloys and is the workhorse of the titanium industry

 

Galing is a problem in a lot of Materials . Special care and knowledge is required when using it. Alluminium is similar and as I have written before handling an alluminium outboard for instance needs special skills just for handling the alluminium alone.

Using dry threads shows your inexperience and reveals your problems with galing.

Everything assembly I do is lubricated, not lubricating a back stay could result in replacement as should you.

 

http://myarkwrench.com/

Some of my wrench designs I made from Titanium http://myarkwrench.com/
To know more about titanium http://myarkwrench.com/Ti-6Al-4V/Ti-6Al-4V.htm

 

Titanium has value in strength to weight and in resistance to fatigue.

Few boats should be able to justify much if any based on the above. Carbon fiber is probably better for many items where Titanium would be considered.

However, perception can matter. Few people have seen the downsides of Titanium and more than a few have see stainless parts that did not hold up as well as expected.

Personally I am much less happy with typical stainless items than I used to be. It started with some stuff at my plant. At work, we have piping systems that have to deal with sea water. We have found that 304 is not even close to good enough. The "better stuff", 316, is really only good enough when it is near the low end of the specs on stuff like sulfur and near the high end of the specs with stuff like moly.

The above (along with surface contamination with carbon steel residue) can lead to staining, stress corrosion cracking and pitting.

If all "marine grade" stainless was really as corrosion and stain resistant as it should be, there would be a lot less dissatisfaction caused by ugly and/or failed stainless stuff.

 

The aircraft industry does have a lot of issues with Ti fittings and bolts, I used to write retrofit procedures to replace them. The problem comes from intergranular corrosion caused by contact with contaminates or dissimilar metals, this can not be visually inspected, the first indication of a problem it the part breaks in half. This can happen when using cad plated bolts in a Ti fitting near a heat source (like an engine).

They have learned however and have developed procedures to prevent contamination, and are now using different heat treatment process to make Ti less troublesome. Ti is an important alloy in aircraft, but it is false to say there were not problems.

As far as marketing the Ti parts to boat builders I would suggest you develop costs based on total life cycle of the parts. There is the up front cost, the installation costs, the cleaning and maintenance over the life of the part, the regular inspection and replacement cost (over non-Ti parts), and the quality of appear issue that would cost more to get the same appearance as Ti in other materials. Also, if you have a weight savings advantage, you can also show that it will burn less fuel (or can carry more income generating cargo or passengers), over its useful life, you will be able to sell more. Extra weight on any vessel or vehicle makes it cost more to operate.

If you can show that the life cycle cost is similar, even if the up front cost is the much higher, you will be able to sell a lot. If you can show it saves money over the life of the boat, you will sell even more. If you can not show that the extra up front costs are worth the savings in down stream costs, than you just have the equivalent of gold plated hardware, it only costs more.

So develop a total life cycle cost comparison, and hopefully it is favorable. Without showing specific cost benefits, you will have a tough time selling very many parts.

Good luck.

 

At the end of the day it isn't what I think is worth it but its what the client thinks its worth as they are the one to foot the bill on delivery. I would say 150-200% more on the cost of replacing the stainless accessories would be my guess.

 

Is titanium worth it ?
Men like titanium such as titanium watch strap where a woman likes diamonds.
A way to look at titanium cost is similar to air travel where people who have money surplus will travel first class or business class where the majority people who are on a budget will pay for economy class.
An example if I had no cash shortage and had an interest in hand tools I would buy titanium such as an example in an art form
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=atwood titanium or more a practical use Titanium wrench demonstration.AVI - YouTube
Another example as this moment I am building a small aluminum box trailer that is an illusion and does not look like a boat until the wheels are removed http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/21876/ppuser/49990 .
Because the wheels and suspension are removed at the same time, I chose titanium and aluminum which allows over a 50% weight reduction when removing wheels.
If you have a cash shortage then stainless or chrome molybdenum steel would be the next choice.
It’s the same as cloths or the car you drive or a boat is how much money you have to deciding a choice if you are not stingy with money.
Some people pay $1000 for a bottle of wine or spend thousands on gambling or some piss all their money down the drain.
However in some applications titanium has its faults such as hardness is only 38 HRC also it’s a flexible metal which handicaps it for items like pipe clamps also welding splatter sticks easily stick to the titanium surfaces.
There is a horse for each course
When I was working on a LNG gas project and gave 30 sample alligator titanium key rings away to fellow worker, they all had smiles on their faces and not one of them had touched titanium before besides a watch strap.
It was a mystery which made the titanium key ring gift valuable to them.

 

or more a practical use Titanium wrench demonstration.AVI - YouTube
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV40x7ZY5Rw -

 

I thought Titanium was real cool stuff to use but after reading this thread I have to admit to having the enthusiasm removed a little.

To answer the question now---I would probably stick to stainless.

Kind of better the devil you know that the devil you don't.

 

Titanium is cool stuff if you can afford it

 

Not with galing and disimilar metal corrosion as well as cost.

I can get non rusting galing electrolisis with stainless at half the price

Where are you in Thailand Myark?

 

http://www.titan-marine-hardware.com/ can give a idea on marine and price

I think this is cool where its cabin is suspended beneath titanium spring-loaded struts leading from hulls, absorbing the shock.
http://gizmodo.com/experimental-watercraft/