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  #31  
Old 12-01-2010, 08:25 AM
rasorinc rasorinc is offline
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I forgot to mention that lumber companies are growing Eucalypus on huge tracks of land in most every South American country. You can find it on Google but usually only in large amounts . I found it in Ohio. Also, very rot resistant and exceedingly strong. It is now a farmed lumber.
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  #32  
Old 12-01-2010, 09:19 AM
Steve W Steve W is offline
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Michael, i completly agree with all you said in post #24 except for the bit about no substitute working for for some applications.When i was an apprentice boatbuilder in the early 70s it always amused me that with the advent of production fiberglass boats,some builders found it neccessary to use lots of varnished exterior woodwork to make them look like a wood boat while we found it neccessary to put in lots of extra work to achieve that perfect spray paint finish to make our custom cold molded or airex boats look like a production fiberglass boat.
That said, the fact that we cant change, is that many production boats do in fact have, not necessary an overabundance, but some teak that is no longer servicable and is due for replacement and with the high price of teak, this to me, is where a viable substitute would be desirable. While i personally love the look of brightwork i will only varnish items which can have fitted covers for the 98% of the time im not on board (i dont give a rats ass about the dockwalkers) Any woodwork that is not practical to cover i prefer to let weather to that silver/grey where most woods end up, on one of my boats the only exterior woodwork is the toerails, tiller and hatchboard tracks,and hatchboards themselves. I have now replaced the tiller with a carbon fiber one, the hatchboards with 3/4" balsa cored glass ones and the tracks with fiberglass also. I am going to stay with wood for the new toerails but will not varnish them,the existing ones are teak and unlike some others i dont think its a very good choice for this application price aside,due to its relative softness, if it were to be varnished it would be fine but left to weather i think something harder and with a tighter grain will hold up better. This is why i asked for opinions of the specific woods that are readily available where i live, from people who may have actual experience with these woods, so far mrwright is the only one with experience with these woods. Im sure there are other suitable woods for this purpose but if i have to order from somewhere else, by the time i factor in shipping it is not as practical as walking into the local big box and walking out with my toerail stock.
Steve.
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  #33  
Old 12-01-2010, 09:29 AM
Steve W Steve W is offline
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rasorinc, i will look at the ironbark if it is available within the state, but i always try to consider weight when choosing anything that goes on a boat so probably would not use it for the toerails as they are high up.
Steve.
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  #34  
Old 12-01-2010, 10:03 AM
michael pierzga michael pierzga is offline
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Im looking at a mission critical, beautifully executed use of teak..A bare teak, window framed, wheelhouse on a 20 plus year old Dutch build motorsailor. Spectacular . I dont think any other wood could be substituted. Old growth burmese Teaks performance in the wet dry, high UV ,cycle is magical.
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  #35  
Old 12-01-2010, 11:01 AM
Steve W Steve W is offline
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Fair enough Micael,im not trying to change anyones minds here,however ive used enough teak over more than 35 yrs to recognize its not perfect, where it falls down is that it does not withstand the maintainance attempts of overzealous owners well,when owners scrub teak with a stiff nylon brush(which unfortunatly they do) it removes the soft wood rather quickly leaving the harder wood,then when it gets so deep and looks like crap they sand it down flat again,pretty soon its worn away so much it needs replacing .It is not the fault of the teak but it doesnt matter, its what happens and i am looking for something that will stand up better which i think some of the jungle woods will. I have been watching the Ipe boardwalk here for the 15 -20 yrs its been down and it is incredible,too heavy though and tends to split along the grain in thinner sizes. I may try Garapa on my own boat.
Steve.
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  #36  
Old 12-01-2010, 11:24 AM
michael pierzga michael pierzga is offline
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Yah Steve.. The next time you lay a teak deck, insist the the owner properly care for them.

Ive been sailing this yacht since new...thats 1994. The teak decks are always preserved with either Semco or teak wonder to generate max lifespan of the 25mm teak decking. I haven't washed...scrubbed... the decks in three years. Many owner dont care for the decks and never get a full service cycle from them. Id not recommend teak decks to anyone who expects long life, good looks and no maintenance. My decks are resealed every 4 to 6 weeks. Plenty of work and not cheap, but fantastic durability on a wet dry cycle high use deck

For me whats fascinating is to look at classic yachts...racing yacht from people like Herreshoff that used white pine for its superior grain structure and weight to strength . I suppose white pine is not suitable for veneer...20mm of less decks.
Attached Thumbnails
Teak Substitutes-mooring-003.jpg  Teak Substitutes-vizreaching-019.jpg  
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  #37  
Old 12-01-2010, 12:22 PM
Steve W Steve W is offline
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Trouble is Micheal i just have no confidence that people will do what you do,in fact most wont on an on going basis. I would not substitute for teak on a deck i dont think but for a lot of the other things i mentioned ,i think so. Trouble is teak is my favorite wood to work with,boy that Ipe was nasty,i wont be using that again but i will probably buy a board of the others to try before i make up my mind. We laid a VG Douglas fir deck on a 50ft tugboat a few years ago, dont know how it will work out long term but clearly no use for the other items mentioned earlier.
Steve.
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  #38  
Old 12-01-2010, 12:48 PM
michael pierzga michael pierzga is offline
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Have a look at the classic Herreshoff yachts with white pine deck...you see them now and again at the classic yacht regattas...spectacular. These are traditionally laid decks.
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  #39  
Old 12-01-2010, 01:01 PM
Submarine Tom Submarine Tom is offline
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Here's a thought: "Why take a perfectly good, water tight, low maintenance, new Fiberglass boat and drill thousands of holes in it to install expensive, high maintenance hardwood???"

Another: "If God had wanted Fiberglas boats, He would have made Fiberglas trees!"

-Tom
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  #40  
Old 12-01-2010, 01:27 PM
mark775
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Steve, We've ALL been doing it for 35 years - You are not the patriarch you think you are. 35 times of mentioning your experience is sufficient.
Apparently some don't like Richard. I don't know what the story is there but he is a busy man, comes in here to donate his knowledge to help and may not spend the time to word things in a manner that pleases everyone. Before you take a nip at him, bear in mind that what he is saying is true and wrought of experience. I wouldn't take that knowledge lightly.
Teak that weathers to gray... has been abused. Michael knows what he is doing with his decks - Michael, tell us, the white pine decks you talk about (we are aware that they exist), how do they grip a deck shoe when wet and heeled?
Whoever said "hard wood" knows the difference between hard "hard wood" and "hardwood" or he would not seperate the word into its contingent parts.
Please, let's keep the personal biases about farmed being more environmentally friendly than old growth or whatever out of it. The query is just about what wood is better. If it makes one feel better, the wood was cut thirty years ago and is stored by species, ready for use - which one for a toe-rail?
(aluminum)
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  #41  
Old 12-01-2010, 02:17 PM
michael pierzga michael pierzga is offline
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To tell you the truth Mark...I thought the pine decks on the yacht were Teak !!!! Colour, texture all looked like bleached silvery teak. The yachts name was Marilee and was in France after a total rebuild on the US east coast By William Cannel to original spec . . It was only when the yachts captain told me that I found out it was white pine.
Evidently...not long ago white pine was THE CHOICE for decking on a laid deck. Goggle "Holystoned white pine decks"
Attached Thumbnails
Teak Substitutes-cbb_marilee_frame24.jpg  Teak Substitutes-cbb_marilee_frame21.jpg  Teak Substitutes-cbb_marilee_frame16.jpg  

Teak Substitutes-marilee2.jpg  
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  #42  
Old 12-01-2010, 02:43 PM
Steve W Steve W is offline
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Mark, i have never claimed to be a patriarch but also do not care for being patronised by those who somehow believe they are the only one with experience posting on here and be little everyone else. Richard, since you bring him up is just one of many experienced contributors to this forum, nothing more,sometimes what he is saying is valuable, sometimes not so much. We all have a lot of expertise in some areas, less in others, i for example do not contribute to threads on metal boats except to ask questions, why? because i dont have expertise in that area. It would be nice if others would self regulate their participation in threads where they clearly have no knowlege.
Ok,point taken regarding aluminum being better for toerail,i agree,i have slotted aluminum on one of my boats, however what a lot of folks have a hard time getting their minds around is that there is often a cost/benefit analysis done when making decisions on spending on an old boat, example,the boat i am talking about is a Lindenberg 26 that i paid $1500 for on ebay just because i like it, it has scrubbed out teak toerails that need replacing, the boat,no matter what i do to it will never be worth more than $10000,probably less, sooo, no matter if i replace them with teak ,aluminum or cambara,the work will be similar,should i spend $1000 for materials or $200? (just pulled out of the air) i know what my answer will be.
Steve.
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  #43  
Old 12-01-2010, 02:54 PM
Steve W Steve W is offline
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Michael, beutiful pictures you have posted. Now we are getting to my point, most woods will weather to pretty much the same silvery grey color,so, if one is happy with that (i am) then (im talking my toerails here) just about any stable,hard wood with a tight grain that is resistant to decay and checking will get me the look i want without the premium price of teak, its worth exploring imho.
Steve.
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  #44  
Old 12-01-2010, 03:12 PM
mark775
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Okay. And how about Victorian ash, macrocarpa, or quecus macrocarpa. I don't know, just throwing some woods out there. Lignum vitae was the first thing I thought of but too heavy and expensive, I suppose.
Michael, I see it being layed traditionally. You don't happen to know of an instance of it glued down, do you? Why do you suppose it isn't used more for that? I suspect that it doesn't grip.

Clear doug fir. Not that hard tho.
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  #45  
Old 12-01-2010, 04:05 PM
michael pierzga michael pierzga is offline
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I Think the reason teak is used, or overused, is because of its name and perceived value . IT HAS TEAK DECKS !!!!!. Its gotta be a good boat. sign the check on the dotted line.
You will never see a yacht advetised IT HAS PLANTATION GROWN TEAK DECKS !!

Pine decks ???? Hmmm.... was this yacht built by a homeowner shopping at Home Depot ?

Its a marketing thing. I'm certain that many lesser known woods, with good qualities, could be marketed...perhaps not as deck material, but as general high quality exterior yacht woods.
For decks I see more and more synthetic products being used.
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