Self made Copper-Epoxy-mix as Antifouling? - And the 'same' ready made products?

[Angélique]

Originally Posted by pauloman

google copper powder epoxy

Hi Paul,

Do you know of a max amount of copper powder in the epoxy that is allowed by law..?

About your website, Epoxy Products ---> Copper Epoxy Filler:

How much to use? Epoxies weight about 9 or 10 pounds per gallon. A gallon of the copper powder is about 8 - 9 pounds. Add between 3 - 6 pounds of copper per gallon of our Low V epoxy. Three pounds will give you a nice, coppery colored finish without brush marks. At 4 to 6 pounds of copper you will certainly leave behind brush or roller marks, but you can sand these out. Five pounds of copper per 1.5 gal unit of Low Visc Epoxy is a common order - no feedback on there being too much or too little copper. This is enough for boats about 26 feet and smaller.

If using a medium, or standard thickness marine epoxy instead of our thin Low V epoxy, you can probably reduce the amount of copper by 20 or 30%.

What mixing ratios is that in 'kg copper powder per liter* epoxy (resin incl. hardener)' and what mixing ratio do you recomend for use as antifouling and what kind of epoxy do you recomend for this, please give a link to the epoxy..?

Thanks for the info !

Cheers,
Angel

P.S. - * answer in kg would be even better as it all can be weighted then.

[eyschulman]

Just think about the size of the paint industry associated with marine bottom paint and the access to research that industry has. Good luck if you think you can put some copper powder in epoxy and come up with the magic bullet. So far it has not worked not because of lack of effort.

[Angélique]

Regarding to post #31:

Paul answered by PM as he was afraid it was too commercial for him to post it on the forum, but he gave permission to quote if I wanted to share the information, so here it is...

Originally posted as PM by Pauloman:

a pound of copper powder will fill a quart can.

On our epoxy and copper kits - we often sell 1.5 gallons of a very low Visc epoxy with 5 pounds of copper. We don't make claims or give mix directions for legal reasons. Officially we sell copper powder and epoxies not any sort of copper/epoxy bottom coating. Some folks seem to like thin coats with less copper others thicker mixes. Our user feedback page does give comments from users and their mixtures. The comments are all over the place, hard to believe they all start with the same products. note we cannot sell the low v epoxy outside the usa. If you use a thicker epoxy you get a less color smooth surface as the copper flakes don't all line up flat (OK because you have to sand them to expose the copper anyway).

I like the copper added to varnish to make a copper decorative paint!

Note that the copper is very very fine (floats in the air - wear a mask!)

you can add so much copper that you make copper epoxy puttty. the copper is coated with something to keep it 'fresh' and is non conductive as sold. I understand a mild acid removes the 'coating' -

basically we try to stay out of the 'big issues' and just sell the copper powder for folks to use as they wish..

Keeps it simple and keeps expectations low. Some folks just seem to want the copper bottom look, others seem want anti fouling. some folks expect a copper and epoxy mix to be like enamel paint, others want a thick coating and then are unhappy with drips and sags.

so much nicer to just sell the copper powder and let folks use it as they see fit.

Thanks for the answer Paul, hope you stay tuned for further questions, I don't think it's too commercial to answer questions here directly though, but I don't rule the roost here, so do it as you like . . . .

Cheers,
Angel

[masalai]

As some may be aware, I recently went on the hard for 2 weeks to attend to some minor maintenance and change propellers... I launched mid / late April 2011 so less than 6 months wet, had a good growth of slime and green stuff from the enriched (well fertilised with run-off from domestic gardens etc), water in the marina's... A quick wash with the high pressure gear and the bottom is good...

Whilst travelling very little fouling occurred, what started, was removed easily with a soft broom as the tide went out and the boat settled on the sand-bar... The main application was done in small batches that would cover less than a square metre... Observation and experience indicates thin rolled, (using short fibre rollers about 2" wide were best), on well worked layers of high copper content mix with normal "west" epoxy was best... The powdered pure copper I get in 10kg or whatever pails from ATL on the Gold Coast of SE Queensland... I have 10 to 12 kg of copper on the bottom of my hulls... and I am pleased with the result... My little piece of peace for a recent image... The effect of the copper may be seen on the mini-keel, (where a dog peed),... 50 or so years ago all wooden plank hulls, (local prawn trawlers etc.), were covered with sheets of copper as anti-foul paint was not readily known or available...

[Angélique]

Originally Posted by Ad Hoc

Whatever you do, do not use it on aluminium..!!!

Don't know if it's correct but this I found in the Coppercoat FAQ about the use on aluminium...

Does Coppercoat cause any problems with regards to electrolytic/galvanic action?

No. With the resin carrier insulating each copper sphere, the final coating is inert and non-conductive. A current can not pass through Coppercoat and this coating does not cause or promote electrolysis or cathodic decay. Consequently Coppercoat can be safely applied to metal structures such as iron keels and steel or aluminium craft (after the application of an appropriate epoxy primer). The property of electrical non-conduction in metallic powders including copper was first discovered in 1890 by Eduard Branley and is known as the “Branley Effect”. Sacrificial anodes should be fitted in the usual manner.

Sorry a bit late response, just rereading the thread . . . .

Cheers,
Angel

[Angélique]

From the quote in post #33:

‘‘ the copper is coated with something to keep it 'fresh' and is non conductive as sold. I understand a mild acid removes the 'coating' ’’

This keeps me wondering . . . . .

- What acid to use ?
- How to apply the acid on a powder so fine it even floats in the air, and how to remove the acid without losing powder ?
- How to be sure that the coating is off ?
- Must one get rid of the acid residues ?
- If so, how to get rid of the residues without losing copper powder ?
- How to dry the copper powder properly before putting it in the mix ?

Does all available copper powder have this coating ?

How is that with the copper powder that comes with Coppercoat . . ? ?


Coppercoat as delivered: epoxy resin + hardener + copper powder.

As to post #32, sure a self-selected mixture has a higher risk of failure.

Rereading the thread, less than half of the responses so far are positive about the working as a good antifouling, Benjy gives good reasons to accept this. Durability, as reported here, is OK.

Cheers,
Angel

[Angélique]

Originally Posted by masalai

Observation and experience indicates thin rolled, (using short fibre rollers about 2" wide were best), on well worked layers of high copper content mix with normal "west" epoxy was best...

My little piece of peace for a recent image... The effect of the copper may be seen on the mini-keel, (where a dog peed)

Thanks for the info Mas , bottom looks good . . . .


click to enlarge

But as much oxidation on the waterline as where the dog peed. Both, the oxidation on waterline and on the dog pee sure shows you have your copper exposed . . . .

Btw, must have been a big dog . . . . or one that lifted his behind to reach the top of that LAR keel on blocks . . . .

Cheers,
Angel

P.S. - Mas, what mixing ratios copper powder vs. epoxy (resin incl. hardener) did you use ?

[Angélique]

General question, is the copper oxide formed on the exposed copper surface less leaching into the environment as the pre-oxidised copper in copper oxide based antifouling paints ?

Cheers,
Angel

[pauloman]

I've tried matching the copper claims of other vendors in their epoxy. They cheat and distort the facts. if you used as much as they claim, you get copper putty. The trick often used is that they don't consider the curing agent as part of the epoxy. Just the resin part A is the 'real epoxy' - so the numbers are before it is 'thinned down' with curing agent.

And of course anyone paying hundreds of dollars (US) per gallon for any sort of epoxy, copper epoxy mix, or LPU coating is a fool...... yet Those vendors are easily making 300-500% profits on each sale and laughing all the way to the bank.. I've been in the marine and industrial coatings business for over 20 years, I know......

[tazmann]

I did two boats in the late 90's a santana 20 and merit 23 with copperepoxy, works great for trailer boats, It will start growing slime in a week or two in the water. Cleans off easy. I still have the merit 23 and the copperpoxy is still in good shape. iT dicolors and turns greenish and with a light wet sand looks new again. I wouldn't use it as an antifouling you wont be happy with it but it does help some. As far as I know it has been outlawed here because of the copper which does not make sense to me it is not ablative and last 10 or more years
Tom

[sailbleu]

Hello Pauloman,

are you still copper oxide business ?

Thanks

[sailbleu]

Originally Posted by tazmann

I did two boats in the late 90's a santana 20 and merit 23 with copperepoxy, works great for trailer boats, It will start growing slime in a week or two in the water. Cleans off easy. I still have the merit 23 and the copperpoxy is still in good shape. iT dicolors and turns greenish and with a light wet sand looks new again. I wouldn't use it as an antifouling you wont be happy with it but it does help some. As far as I know it has been outlawed here because of the copper which does not make sense to me it is not ablative and last 10 or more years
Tom

Did you sand the hull before launching the boat ?
I've been said this is neccesairy for a good result.

Regards

[sailbleu]

I would like to revive this topic since I'm in the process of coppercoating my boat.
First of all , you hear good and bad reviews on the treatment.
But the general pattern is that when people use the real stuff , the major part is happy with it , as where the DIY coppercoaters are not that happy.
I think it all has to do with the kind of epoxy being used.
The real stuff is made of water based epoxy , allowing the coat to wear down bringing new copper to the surface , like a normal koper oxide based AF.
Using non water based epoxy encapsules the copper forcing you to sand it down once in while to get the active copper to the surface.
Therefor , I think the succes depends on the kind of epoxy.

Let's start from there .

Any comments ?

Thanks an regards

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by sailbleu

I would like to revive this topic since I'm in the process of coppercoating my boat.............
Therefor , I think the succes depends on the kind of epoxy. Let's start from there. Any comments ? Thanks an regards

Here's an objective article you might find interesting:

http://www.yachtmollymawk.com/2009/11/coppercoat/

[sailbleu]

Thanks Mike ,

ive also stumbled on this link some time ago , but unfortunatly it doesn't say what epoxy is being used .
I'm so convinced the kind of epoxy is the key element.

Regards