polyethylene drums for fuel tanks

[SamSam]

So we're all in the same boat, we're all ignorant and don't know what we're talking about when it comes to using plastic barrels for fuel tanks.

There's two ways to do things. You can do it and then deal with the problems, or you can try and figure out any problems before you do it. To me, it seems better to try and figure out the problems before hand when it comes to gasoline and boats.

Nobody has necessarily said boat fuel tanks have higher standards than storage barrels or that they won't work as fuel tanks. But they haven't been tested as fuel tanks and they certainly would not pass any regulatory screen (like Coast Guard) or would any insurance company insure them as fuel tanks, or pay any damages they could blame on them. Not that that matters, but it might.

I'm kind of surprised that you would be advocating the use of barrels as fuel tanks, in that as a licensed professional engineer, aren't you sort of legally responsible for structural or mechanical opinions?

[Ike]

First off you don't have to get on your high horse and start calling us ignorant and flaming us. I was asked my opinion and I gave it. You wouldn't have posted here if you didn't want our opinion, but now that you have it you don't want to hear it! I didn't assume they weren't good enough. I stated what some of the requirements are and questioned whether they can meet them, specifically the fire test. Are these capable of surviving a gasoline fire for 2 1/2 minutes without leaking?

I too am an engineer and have worked with with standards for boats all my life. I was a member of the American Boat and Yacht Council Fuel and Ventilation systems committee, the SAE fuel systems committee and have participated in other forums such as NFPA and ISO on the subject of fuel systems. I was also the USCG's liaison to the EPA on the upcoming evaporative emmission standards for fuel systems for boats. I have also worked closely with Underwriters Laboratories and Immana Labs testing fuel tanks for compliance. So when it comes to fuel tanks on boats I do knwo what I am talking about.

No, I don't know what the DOT standards for polyethylene storage barrels are but could easily look them up. But the comparison would be uproductive because the nature of the environment the tanks are in and their usage is totally different. The question is not what standards they currently are built to. The question is will they meet the Fed requirements for fuel tanks on boats? If you are willing to have them tested (and pay for the testing) be my guest.

If you read the standards you would find that one of the requirements is that the manufacturer of the tank has to certiify that it meets USCG requirements and has been pressure tested under 33 CFR 183.580. The pressure test is simple but only one of the requirements. Are you will to certify the tanks?

The other question is; are you willing to take the risk? If you install these on your boat and something does happen, are you willing to take the liability? I will assume you take family and friends out on your boat. Is it worth risking their lives?

Frankly if you have the boat surveyed for insurance purposes or for sale, there isn't a certified marine surveyor who will accept them.

As a boat owner you should know by now that a boat is a hole in the water you throw money into. However, some of the best money you will ever spend is on making sure your fuel system is safe. As the old joke goes, a fire at sea can ruin your whole day.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by SamSam

I'm kind of surprised that you would be advocating the use of barrels as fuel tanks, in that as a licensed professional engineer, aren't you sort of legally responsible for structural or mechanical opinions?

chill out! gee wiz you guys. I did not flame anyone. And I did not advocate using barrels, I just stated that it would be easy enough to find out if the DOT standards are as good or even better than the those for boats fuel tanks.

Ike, clearly you have a lot of experience working with the boat fuel systems, but it was you that stated "I doubt very much that polyethylene barrels would meet the requirements for gasoline fuel tanks on boats" clearly indicating you did not know for sure, and that you just dismissed the idea. I was just pointing out that it is possible they just might, and I would not be so quick to dismiss it.

And yes I would approve such an installation if I can verify the specification meets all the applicable requirements. Fuel systems on board a boat are a very important safety issue, so it is not something I would take lightly. But neither would I dismiss the use of an alternative fuel tank until I investigated it. I am always looking for creative alternatives to solve problems, in the process I have saved my own clients many thousands in construction and maintenance expense.

It is easy for anyone to call out full new replacements of any unknown component or structural element. Yet it is a much larger intellectual and creative challenge to find less expensive alternatives that still meet ALL of the design requirements. This is the kind of creative challenge that makes my work interesting. Doing the routine may be the easy way, but to me it also represents a lack of imagination.

[naturewaterboy]

Thank you Ike for your input on the fuel tank question. I was going to write you directly if you didn't post here, as I'm aware of your extensive knowledge of marine fuel systems.

For everyone's info, I'm going to buy tanks from Moeller or one of the other manufacturers of approved tanks. I'm an engineer, but I'm not going to get barrels tested and approved. I'll spend the $ and get tanks that have gone thru that. Just thought that someone else may have already gone thru this trouble.

It has been a great discussion though! Thanks everyone!