MAS Epoxy - Not worth it! (infusion: data on hardener use at various temperatures)

Could be. I started in wood and i didn't like it, so switched to foam/glass and it has been going well. Long project, but the quality is good.

 

Resin Research

These guys may be able to help: http://www.resinresearch.net/id4.html

 

Trying to get some quotes on Momentive/Hexion. No luck. Herman or Andrew, do you have another comparable model number for those in the States?

Is there any chance you could take a quick look at the Momentive/Hexion product PDFs I have attached to this post to see which of the products best approximates the infusion resins you use, or the MAS I have described?

Which would you select?

The company is headquartered in the USA in Ohio, so you'd think we could get pretty much everything... guess not, though.

Here is the reply we got:


Dear XXXXX,

Thank you for the request. However, this product is only manufactured and sold in Europe. I have attached our distributor information, however, since you are located in the US, a sample of Epikote 04908 is not available. Please let me know if you wish to sample a product that is available in the US. I have also attached our epon product overview.

EMAIL SUBJECT: Epikote 04908
BODY: Hello,
I am looking to buy a few drums/barrels of Epikote 04908. Am I able to
buy directly through you or do I have to go through a distributor?
If I have to go through a distributor, I am located in the USA;
construction site is in XXXX and office is in XXXX.
Thanks

Thank you,

Shannon Abel
Information Specialist
Momentive Specialty Chemicals
4information@momentive.com


PS: Thanks, Doug. We are looking at that vendor as well. They sure have good prices.

 

If it available in Europe you might find it in Canada. A supplier there would ship it to you unless it is banned in America. Catalyst usually ships as hazardous.

 

Ask them for a datasheet on RIMR135 and available hardeners. That is what they use in the wind energy market here.

To tease you off, I have this stuff available, and I am selling it off cheaply.

You could investigate what shipment to USA costs. By boat this is not a problem at all. How much do you need?

 

I only need a single drum at this point, plus associated hardener. Maybe PM me the cost and I'll look into shipping if the base cost makes sense to add shipping to.

 

Did Momentive say that RIM235 & 135 are not available in US or just Epikote 04908?
RIM235 is available in Australia.
While the prices are great going direct to Hexion you have two problems to overcome.
1. quantity; in Aus minimum purchase is a palet, this means for one palet of hardener you need 2-5 palets of resin. So only production builders can save money unless you also become a reseler.
2.Hexion no longer give you full data for all of the resins and hardener combinations. You have to do your own blending and testing.

I dont know if you are going to achieve anything by changing from MAS resin you have been using. RIM 235,135 & Epikote04908 will give you the same problems at low temeratures and also should be post cured.
So I would only change if the properties or price is better compared to MAS.

 

I am still working on this. Waiting for a quote on whatever product number they think will most closely match the RIM 135 and 235, plus Epikote.

Hexion here in the States demands huge pallet orders as well, but they also have a very large distributor network, so there is no worry. Drums can be bought.

The price is the main reason I'm looking to change. The title of the thread, "MAS, not worth it" is the main reason. MAS is trying to charge $6000+ for a drum of resin and associated hardener. That is certifiably insane.

 

I guess shipping 1 drum and a couple of cans will be prohibitively expensive. I did ask for some quotes, though.

RIM135 should do the job. Did they send a datasheet yet? I am curious to see what they serve in the USA.

I do have a relatively extensive datasheet on RIM235 with associated hardeners.

 

Infusion process needs person to person support

The posts by CatBuilder to this site were brought to our attention by a friend who wanted us to be aware of things being said about our company. We thank him for that and we also thank CatBuilder for the opportunity to address his issues and help everyone understand our company's customer service policies

While it is true, for INFUSION, we do not have a chart of temps and amount of fast accelerator to add at given temps, the fact is, that it is impossible to make up such a chart for the INFUSION Process, even given the vastness of room on the internet. For every three degrees of temperature change (sometimes even less), there are associated changes as it is a process based upon turbulent flow. That means a change in temp, accelerator, size of the part, laminate thickness etc…. imagine how big a chart that would have to be?

Every Infusion job is different - the working conditions, differing temperatures, size of part and amount of accelerator needed, must be adjusted. In the 20 years we have been offering an Infusion system we have not found two customers with matching process environments. Most do not have the ability to achieve the elevated cure temp required for most Infusion or hold consistent room temperatures to produce predictable infusions. We do have some customers who do complete Ambient infusion but they are in warmer climes. Most need some increased temp for full cure. Because of these variables, we decided a long time ago, rather than offer a cookie-cutter approach to epoxy infusion we prefer to offer one-on-one customer support. That is why we offer a LIVING person, almost 24/7, to help our customers understand the nuances of Infusion and standard epoxy work. How many companies do you know who offer their OWNER's cell phones so a customer can call after business hours and get their questions answered when they need it not Monday thru Friday 9-5?
We may have been wrong to assume people using an Infusion process are already familiar with working with standard epoxy. We do apologize for that assumption. As far as our standard resin and hardener go, we DO have a chart of temps and cure and working times on our website - http://www.masepoxies.com/Epoxy_School_/Tech_Support_FAQ.html##5. It has been there for years.
MAS Epoxies is renowned for our customer support. "Cookie-Cutter" is just not our thing. We have been called into boatyards to help after they had to scrap 90' hulls because they tried to follow the "cookie-cutter" approach. One size does not fit all. We like the 1:1 and think most of our customers do too.

 

Responses are inline in green...

 

mamcccpr; a common issue boat builders face is that epoxy suppliers do not provide full mechanical properties for their resins and hardeners.
For example Catbuilder needs to decide how much of a benefit he would get from postcuring his entire boat once completed.
To make that decision he needs the data for the resin/hardener he used for long term ambient cure, +24hrs at 50'C, +24hrs at 60'C. These temperatures can be reached in a simple plastic tent witout too great a cost.
My experiance is that builders are prepared to pay a premium price for epoxy when data is provided.

 

There are other possibilities here. Perhaps the manufacturer is reluctant to give information that their competition could use. Perhaps the information might show the user there is no difference between their product and a less premium priced product.

 

How could telling your customer how much of a variable accelerator to use at different temperatures in any way help their competition, who *already do* tell their customer how to vary kick rate to compensate for temperature differences?

There is, in fact, hardly any difference between what they supply and what Momentive supplies.

Momentive has the same type of 3 component infusion system available at 1/2 the cost. You just have to buy it a drum at a time from Momentive.

Maybe MAS's niche is not for large projects, but for small ones, selling a gallon at a time. Maybe I have been trying to fit their square peg into a round hole. That could be the problem.

 

First infusion project it sounds like.
Did your test panels fail to provide working parameters for you?
I have used Mas epoxies professionally for years- they offer a great product which has never given me any problems.