marine plywoods from china revisited

Discussion in 'Materials' started by yellowcat, Sep 25, 2011.

  1. Steve W
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    Steve W Senior Member

    Yellowcat, so you will/may be buying from an established Canadian importer importer? are you able to get some references of people he has sold to in Canada, i thought you were going to import a container load yourself. It will be interestin to see how it turns out. Its always good to hear from folks like tunnels and mannie who have actual experience with the product although not neccearily by the same manufacturer.
    Steve.
     
  2. yellowcat
    Joined: Feb 2007
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    Location: canada

    yellowcat Junior Member

    yes, i am looking at buying a 20ft container.
    At first i was looking at buying from Noah in canada (try to encourage home team) , i got their price list. After reading about some folks who bought from them plys that were originally from china , i asked my neigbor (who finally decided to import himself hockey sticks, etc) how much money he saved, he says he is paying 1/3 net delivered here , so even if some defects occur (the supplier always replaces them), he says he would not be in business anymore otherwise because most if not all the other big names do it.
    Noah is still in my potential supplier because i need only about 1000 sheets (4'x8'x1/8") of okoume BS . I might do some tests with lauan for specifics but no real intent to use it as marine ply. (although some people tested it and not that bad).
    If you go to Alibaba.com, check the prices on their Gold suppliers, quite amazing difference.
    I have used wood for many years some for small boats and repairs and for other outdoor uses with epoxy. I have all the tools. If i go to composites, it is a twilight zone, i have a little feel for its techniques ( although i am getting better everyday at it) , it is the Corecell vs GPET (Gpet has a low compression, lower price) , there is a new carbon combo with glass cloth advertised and supposingly better and cheaper. The weaves of the fabrics is crucial and some say that over time wood has a better flex endurance (true for winter skis in my experience) than foam and cloth. The reason why i mention this is that i am sympathetic to the idea of non-rotting materials.
    The concept we are developping takes into accounts transportability of the whole 60 ft catamaran into one 40 ft container + one 20 ft cont.. If you want to have an idea of the concept look for Mediatis Hydraplaner on google, put the masts (smaller) aft and add huge kites at the forward beam for upwinds. This allows you to lower your masts into the water and pivot them on deck, no crane necessary, the kites are all deneema strings and will not capsize the cat.
    Hence, the loads are much lower because we have no mast towering at 100 ft trying to flip the beast. We have plenty of Dpower technologies for the kites. We can come out under very gusty winds now , never possible few years ago.
    This also proves that their is never an easy solution for everything, i appreciate all negative and positive critics, i prefer the valid negative crits, the harder the questions, the more motivated i am, my helpers also are beginning to feel it.
    Cheers
    Mike
     
  3. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    My experience with the bad BS-1088 marked sheets from Chinese importers is they didn't use WBP adhesives and had huge issue with panel construction. So, if you don't need good panel construction and WBP glue, then go for it.
     
  4. boat fan
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    boat fan Senior Member

    I have seen some china plywood here in OZ , and it too was stamped BS1088.

    The glue was WBP adhesive.

    Panel construction , best left without comment , it really was that bad.
    Not really good enough to build a Dog house out of.

    Cheap price , worse quality.

    Be careful !
     
  5. boat fan
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    boat fan Senior Member


    That is rather encouraging Manie.
    Trouble is , pinning down the right manufacturer , or importer.
    Not always easy here.

    Our locally made OZ Hoop Pine is some of the best you could buy , I`m sure , but the price will cause cardiac arrest.
     
  6. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    I can attest to the last few posts as well. I rejected a load of garbage from a supplier - same type Okoume you are looking at buying - 3mm.

    There were voids everywhere.

    The plywood at Home Depot had less voids... much less. That's not a joke.

    I suggest paying the money and getting true Lloyd's Certified, BS-1088 plywood from Boulter Plywood in Sommerville, MA.

    I've bought all my plywood there (after rejecting the junk elsewhere) and have nary seen a void at all. The Okoume is from Africa and the plywood is made in Greece by a very reputable outfit. The workmanship is flawless. I have pieces of scrap that were sitting outside for over a year now (in FLORIDA!) with no sign of delamination.

    Getting the best materials you can is very important when you spend so many hours, months and years of your life creating something. Don't skimp!
     
  7. yellowcat
    Joined: Feb 2007
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    yellowcat Junior Member

    this is so true, perhaps we are in a transition mode, before all TVs were from locals. Now where are they from ? There is a tentative trend to get back local manufacturing , at least this is what conferencees tell Inopoles, Technopoles and other poles hired by cities at high cost for creating some kind of business manufacturing localy untill . The basics is this: there is what is essential, the Must have, the important the Should have, and the "It would be nice to have" , the GVTs are stuck with the same dilema, on a boat, the ocean does not allow for switch in priorities, the Must is on top and would be nice last.
    Thank you and good night. I have to find a good importer .
    Mike
     
  8. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    I just went to the wood work shop and this is the stacks of 18mm , 12mm, and 9 mm the surfaces are nice and theres almost no gapes any where in the veneer stack that i could find , the 6 mm and 3mm stacks are dwindling so cant reall get a good picture . Its on pallets wrapped in plasitic and cardboard and strapped .
    When the order guy comes back i will get the name of the supplyer /manufacture and post it as well . ;)
     

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  9. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I see a lot of sheets there (above 6 photos) with swollen and overlapping veneers, plus a lot more voids and defects then I'd feel comfortable with. I wouldn't pay BS-1088 pricing for that stuff.
     
  10. dinoa
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    dinoa Senior Member

    Two companies in Greece I know of account for a majority of the marine ply.
    Shelman and Mourikis. Both have been on the market for decades and sell a fine product. Surprisingly many sizes like 4mm Okoume are not available locally. I geuss the home market is too small.

    Dino
     
  11. yellowcat
    Joined: Feb 2007
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    yellowcat Junior Member

    Are the Greek plys cheap ? It seems the lack of thickness choices is a drag. There was a meet in late 1990's in Costa Rica , the subject was bamboo plywood. Bamboo grows fast , it is a grass and hard to work , it is one of the strongest tension material naturally found on earth for its weght. Pretty good rot resistance, the chineese make bamboo carpets with strips ... i step on it every morning thinking ...
    i have purchased Kurt Hughes (at first on vhs and the in dvd later) video on building a multihull in ply (okoume) and epoxy. It is not meant for the next entry at the oscars, but it is very informative, he is using CM system which creates (build up) a one piece vaccumed baged behaving like one whole piece hull ply, all joints are pre scarfed and epoxied and staggered . Using the 3mm allows for curves . I had thought of ways to scarf 3 mm (20-1) so 60 mm scarf width (about 2 1/2 inch for 1/8). West-system sales a scarfer to be mounted on a saw. Some use a grinder and stack the plys.
    I am thinking about doing a jig platform with an adjustable uprising end, reminds me a russian plane carrier, then i belt sand , then planer, finish with a belt sand perfectly level. It would be nice to get prescarfed plys.
    Prepreg cloth is getting popular even GIY prepreg. Making the oven is not that complicated. Infusion is fun to watch on youtube it could be a way to do the multiplys, drilling 1,5mm holes 50 mm c/c staggered then prepreg the plys surface. It could be a way to save bad sheets and even negociate the price down for those low end plys. I like the smooth faired surface of okoume plys , it can be achieved with a fiberglass ply.
    At 32 pound per cub foot, okoume is interesting , fiberglass needs the foam (corecell for example) for building the composite lightweight.
    At the end of the day, repairs and spare material storage on the boat is part of my design criteria. For example, spare daggerboards are the very shelving of the "armoires" and bone structure of deck sofas and beds, ready to go.
     
  12. dinoa
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    dinoa Senior Member

  13. Steve W
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    Steve W Senior Member

    Tunnels,that plywood your using doesnt seem to have the plys that im used to with BS1088, typically, 6mm 5 ply, 9mm 7 ply,12mm 11 ply and 18mm 13ply or something like that and i have to agree with Par, i have never seen overlaps in 1088, it looks more like what US manufacturers try to pass off as "marine" plywood but at least they dont pretend it complies to BS1088 specs. I could be wrong as it is hard to count the plies in a stack.
    Steve.
     
  14. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    That's what I saw Steve, plus the other obvious signs, indicating it's not going to pass a 1088 standard, nor likely the 6566 either.
     

  15. CatBuilder

    CatBuilder Previous Member

    Here is a pictures of the Lloyd's Certified (I have a copy of the cert), BS1088 Okoume from Boulter Plywood in 12mm (1/2") thickness.

    Look at all those voids! ;)

    This is the Greek stuff. I'm making some bulkheads out of it and will definitely have more than 20 sheets of it left to sell, since deciding to do my beam bulkheads in foam/glass.


    [​IMG]
     
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