help me help him see reason!!

[stilloutoffocus]

ok gang i need some help again. im trying to drag my boss out of the 60's when it comes to glass layup and repair. he spent about three grand sending me to a composite repair school and then didnt want to use any techniques i learned because "the way we have been doing things for the last 40 years works just fine".
i keep trying to sell him on things like vacuum infusion and 1708 cloth and newer resin materials but he isnt wanting to hear it.
so now im trying to appeal to his business side.
how do these and other materials and techniques save time and money?
i know 1708 saves layup time and the cloth and fabric are already on one roll so its half the cutting. i also read that it saves resin.
i also know that vac infusion, once you get past the initial equipment expence, is much more efficient, faster layup and uses far less resin than traditional hand layup. not to mention the advantages of overhead work.
now the really tricky part will be selling him on vinylester or epoxy for repairs. its going to be hard to get around the cost on these i know. especially since most of the boats we work on are polyester construction.
so what can i do to break him out of these traditionalist views and drag him into the 21st century of frp repair?
any info or tips are super appreciated.
thanks gang

[TeddyDiver]

Look up a couple of infusion video's from youtube and show him..

[ondarvr]

Many long time builders have been burned over the years by the "latest and greatest" product, method, equipment, laminate schedule, etc, so buying into a new idea (again) can be difficult.

I do demonstrations on infusion for fabricators and at times there are some real issues that come up when converting to this process, so the initial cost can be high.

I have friends that make very simple and very large parts that would be easy to infuse, but they've resisted trying it for years. One of them has finally been convinced and will try it this summer, so all you can do is keep trying.

[gonzo]

There is a place for evry technique. Are you sure you are not just hot on the new stuff you recently learned? Some of the tried and true methods continue to be the better overall. I can hand lay fiberglass to about the same ratio as infusion with a shorter setup time. Also, there will be no dry spots.

[rwatson]

Great points - but the only way to convince an experienced businessman is to quote lower on the job he has on hand, and deliver at the quoted price.

Are you prepared to risk the high initial investment to prove a point ?

Dont forget, as an employee, you dont risk warranty repairs or a business reputation while getting up to speed on the new methods.

On the upside - your mention of 1708 fabric with 'double layers' is great news to me. I had never even heard about it! That 3 grand was well spent :-)

[Stumble]

You might think of doing a comparison test. Have one of the yard guys make four 3X1 foot composite panel. Measuring how much time material, and waste went into the finished product. Then do the same with a small scale modern process. Once you have the panels finished do a strength, flex, and weight test on them.

The variation between the hand layup panels is probably going to be pretty large compared to the vacuum infused, and the vacuum panel should also beat the old style construction in every other test. If this doesn't get him thinking...

[Frosty]

Times are hard, your lucky you got a job, he may be aware of things your not.

If your making money right now your doing well , best not rock the boat with experimentation or re-tooling, pumps etc etc.

Probably gonna get worse too.

[Paul aka watertaxi]

You have to be real careful in a recession not to overextend, but it's not a time to stop thinking of ways you can improve. Companies that will come out of the recession ok will use it as a force to make them think harder if there are ways they can improve their efficiency. Those that think times are bad so we'll stop innovating and ride it out before improving anything will make it worse on themselves.

[Frosty]

Going into a recession in good health (established) will mean you may be able to come out intact. We dont know how long this will be.

The last thing you need is to enter hard times while retooling and making potentially suicidal steps (risk) in manufacture because you sent a kid to fibre glass school.

Im with the old man, and another thing ---its his factory.

[Wynand N]

Originally Posted by gonzo

I can hand lay fiberglass to about the same ratio as infusion with a shorter setup time. Also, there will be no dry spots.

Some serious claim...
I actually achieve about 28% resin to 72% glass with VRI on an average basis. Or put in another way; 4 layers 450g CSM, 1 layer 600g WR, 1 surface tissue and 1 layer of 2mm CoreMat get "compacted" to an average of thickness of 1.8 - 2.0mm.
No hand layup method can achieve that or even come close, period. If equipment is well setup, dry spots are non existent.

[gonzo]

That doesn't add up. You say you are laminating 2mm core plus 6 layers and end up with 1.8mm. Besides, the core is supposed to separate the skins. If you compress it, must as well avoid putting it in.

[Wynand N]

That was a test piece I done to show someone the power of a vacuum. I made a piece about 200mm by 600mm long and only vacuumed half of it and the other half the layers hanging loose from the VRI piece for the unbelievers to see themselves. Manie, a well known critter here and friend of mine seen this piece.

Otherwise, you are quite right Gonz, we do not use the CoreMat in VRI because of the compression factor. Thanks for mentioning it. The resin to glass ratio is still the same with glass only.

[gonzo]

Are you refering to wieght ratios?

[Wynand N]

yes, weight of resin to weight of glass

[waikikin]

Stilloutoffocus, if your doing repairs, fixing like with like is often(but not always) the best solution, the fiber ratios mentioned are probably opposite to the layups your fixing, if your finishing with gelcoat for example epoxy although "better" is the wrong choice for a gel finished laminate repair, the combo chop/stitched fabrics are great but not as versatile as a roll of both, infusion & bagging are also terrific techniqes especially on new work, maybe you can introduce some peel ply & prewetting on plastic film for your overhead work. When you've got your own business do all the stuff you want sometimes you just gotta smile sweetly & earn your dough & appreciate the training thats been invested as well. All the best from Jeff.