Floating Residential & Commercial Structures

[enloe13]

Please comment, ask questions, offer advice, sources of supply, experience for anything to do with Residential or Commercial development or the construction of Floating Communities. I am looking for joint partners with experience in permitting and construction techniques to add or enhance our own.

[hoytedow]

OK, here's a question. How will you deal with human waste? Incineration?

[keysdisease]

Here in South Florida there are several residential / commercial floating structures. There a few Hotels with rental units on barge structures, typically a two story barge with 4 units. There are several places where live aboard barge type unpowered house boats are congregated, in Miami along the 79th St Causeway and a few other areas. There are a few places where there are floating restraunts which after a quick google I find is common worldwide like Jumbo in Hong Kong, third picture.

A Florida NA is presenting at the Boat Builders Show this week and he will introduce a modular Houseboat concept:

http://sponbergyachtdesign.com/News.htm

The restraunt in the 1st picture has this large dining room on a barge in Ft Lauderdale.

The second picture is of "Houseboat Row" boats in Key West that were forced to move to a Marina from where many had been squatting for decades on USI.

The problems of utilities, waste, permits, design are a little more difficult than for a typical land structure, but are not difficult to overcome.

What do you have in mind?

Steve

[enloe13]

I saw a program about new development in Amsterdam and prefab floating housing that looked like some we have done for commercial with a basement for the flotation. I really do not have anything in particular in mind immediately. However, I am interested investing in a really forward looking design concept. The problems that I see in the US are Architects, not really picking on Architects, that are interested in the type of thing that you see in the pictures of engorged houses. I suppose the market drives this sort of thing but it drives the price up, and has no architectural appeal, nothing new in design, just a stick built, too close to the water and unable to sustain a storm. Surely we can come up with an attractive new concept, without the masonite and 2 x 4's. We have considered a design competition but are not really sure what venue to use for posting and conducting the event. There may be some merit to artificial harbors off water ways that do not consume existing water surface.

We are not interested in repeating the mistakes of the past in construction or layout. If these are put in a high concentration an artificial water flow system to avoid water stagnation and trash accummulation is a must. Even small marinas need this. It must be a master plan with architectural controls, auto traffic control, water flow control and security.

I would like to know how financing is done on these as opposed to land developments. Tax considerations on personal property and depreciation are a huge issue on mobile structures as opposed to land based housing and maybe a tremendous benefit. Because we have been involved in the manufacturing and construction of single units we have never approached the development, taxes or financing on water based communities. I am sure there is someone out there though.

[enloe13]

Just looked at The new Sponberg houseboats and designs. In my opinion anything that requires bilge pumping, particularly made of wood, is a problem waiting to happen. Float switches fail. Power fails. Owners fail. Think of a community of these, reposessed, and sitting vacant with the power off. In my humble opinion this is not the answer. However, at least these people are trying to do something. As misdirected as it might be.

Plywood in the water will not do no matter how much waterproofing is done. I would really have a problem selling something like this in good conscience. The public is not smart to figure this out until 25 years too late and then the entire industry will take the blame.

It must be done with concrete or some sort of polymer encased foam. If concrete a little water will never hurt. If foam no bilge pumps will be required whatsoever avoiding the issue.

[keysdisease]

I agree with the wood part of what you say, and also with the concrete part, but don't discount steel for the "hull" portion.

The comment "In my opinion anything that requires bilge pumping, particularly made of wood, is a problem waiting to happen" is unrealistic. Anything that floats will need to be pumped eventually. There are plenty of houses with basements that have pumps too.

Encased foam will fail in the long run too. No matter how "closed cell" the foam is, over enough time it will become a soggy access limiting liability.

A concrete barge with "tilt wall" walls and prestressed roof will be a basic structure mostly pre fabbed and as close to bullit proof as possible. A steel barge hull will also work very well and with modern coatings have a very long service life.

Once the hull has been built any conventional prefab style construction can be utlilized for the structure.

There have been several attempts to create "floating" subdivisions here and in Europe with varying sucess. For it to work it has to be cost effective, and in the current real estate market this has just become more difficult.

Some of the more sucessful concepts have been existing resort hotels with marinas using the already owned waterfront for additional floating room units. This of course does not call for costs related to waterfront property, just lost slip fees in exchange for hotel rooms.

Steve

[enloe13]

The point about the bilge pumping: I make that comment due to the number of reposessions on the market now with no power. The effect of not pumping the bilge of anything for a long period, particularly when you only have 2-3 ft. of freeboard would be catastrophic. The theory doesn't worry me; the practically does.

The closed cell foam we use today is loaded and expanded inside cross linked polyethylene encasement modules at 1.2 pounds per cubic ft. Total saturation at 1.2# is only and when totally saturated is 7 percent saturated by weight and only occurs after the poly encasement fails. The new standards for these modules follow the best procedures over the past 50 years and have resulted in modules on the Great Lakes in the ice conditions that have been in place for over 40 years. Open foam is no longer allowed by the Coast Guard on inland waterways. Open foam is disasterous with saturation, crabs, and varments of all types making nests inside. But the new stuff with 1/4 in. rotomolded shells that are totally sealed are safe. They will also, due to the draft shape, not be damaged by ice like square billets of foam. These modules can be made even better upon request of the manufacturers. They however must be made of crosslinked materials in the rotomold process. As in everything you do, there are exceptions and I certainly stand to be corrected and taken to task for statements I may make. I strictly speak from a position of having had to guarantee the performance of these structures over very long periods of time and again do not lightly put my neck in anybody's noose.
I suppose that is not any worse than making statements in this venue to be taken apart by everyone around the world. More Comments Please; I learn from everyone!

[Eric Sponberg]

A lot depends on what your client wants, and in the case of my Flagler Beach client, he knew wood and fiberglass, had those skills, and so we designed the houseboats accordingly. We had looked at similarly designed houseboats in Miami and Ft. Lauderdale, and they had very similar construction, quite a number of them over 40 years old, and all dry as a bone on the inside.

Have a look at my alternative design idea, however, for a Moduluar Catamaran Houseboat, the hulls for which would be built in aluminum. At the bottom of the page is a link to the presentation I made this week at the IBEX conference. http://sponbergyachtdesign.com/ModCatHouseboatNews.htm. This concept is intended for exactly the type of development you want to do. It takes money, as you will see on the next to last slide in the presentation. Solve the money problem first, and then you can do anything you want.

Eric

[Saildude]

The pontoons are a good concept - the other option if the houseboat design was done correctly and there was a critical mass of house boats with your pontoons a spare pontoon could be floated in and used to support the houseboat while the original pontoon was partially submerged and removed for servicing -

[Eric Sponberg]

Originally Posted by Saildude

The pontoons are a good concept - the other option if the houseboat design was done correctly and there was a critical mass of house boats with your pontoons a spare pontoon could be floated in and used to support the houseboat while the original pontoon was partially submerged and removed for servicing -

Well, if you look at my presentation that I posted the link to, I suggest exactly that--move another pontoon under the houseboat and float it up--but you don't have to remove the house pontoon, the whole thing raises up high enough for cleaning and servicing within the resident berth. Or, you can float the whole thing over to a ramp area and take it out of the water on dollies. It's described near the end of the presentation, which is only 7 minutes long.

Eric

[Saildude]

I did download and looked at the presentation - must have missed the boat ramp part. Cleaning can also be done by divers, but once in a while new bottom paint would be prudent seems to me, but if the houseboat does not move then keeping the hull super clean is reduced. There are houseboats in Seattle and they just add a new flotation bag or log when the old logs get waterlogged.

Your cat hulls are a nice way to do things no matter how the hulls are cleaned or painted.

[rsimon]

Food for thought:
http://www.examiner.com/family-in-se...tips-from-hgtv

[rsimon]

I had heard of a project of this type in the conceptualization phase by a houseboat builder (located on Lake Monroe, Sanford, Fl.) This was in 2005 or 2006. It was to be located somewhere in the "Chain of Lakes" in Lake County, Fl. At the time there was some discussion about insurance being too high with possible political pressure of land-livers having to pay higher insurance costs for those risky projects (such as people who want to live on water and at thee edge of water.) Hurricane prone areas=increased insurance costs for everyone in that state is what I gathered about the whole thing. I remember that being a real issue. The insurance rate increases after the 3 hurricanes that hit in 2004 was an issue too. The debate was why people living inland had to pay the increased insurance costs for people living on the coasts which are more prone to damages.

[Eric Sponberg]

For those that want to see the actual presentation at IBEX, Professional Boatbuilder magazine video-taped the whole thing, and you can see it at the link below. The show is divided into two parts, and after publisher Carl Cramer's introduction, I am the first speaker in the first part:

http://www.proboat.com/professional-...a-at-ibex-2011

Anywhere in Florida is prone to hurricanes, and probably the southern tip and the panhandle more than the northeast, if history is any guide. I don't think the issue has been resolved--we continue to monitor our own house insurance and look for ever more affordable prices. For national insurance companies, the argument can be extended to outside the state of Florida--why should policy holders outside Florida effectively subsidize the residents of Florida with higher premiums, if that is in fact the case? I don't know that it is the case, but I would not be surprised if it was so. Florida continues to grow in population, albeit more slowly lately--this is where the business is because this is where people are moving to. Insurance business decisions are based largely on supply and demand.

I don't know that the houseboat insurance question has been resolved. Certainly, there is one added concern over fixed-on-the-ground homes: Houseboats could conceivably tip over in high winds, and that has to be protected against with appropriate ballast and stability features. On the other hand, if the river, lake, or ocean water rises, houseboats float, whereas a fixed home will flood. So there are compensations. Houseboats must be considered as a class for the type of homes that they are and insured accordingly.

Eric

[rberrey]

Theres a tug that has pushed a floating city (only one house so far) down the Mobile river and up again over the past year. If it comes by again I will write down the web site. I sure he would have explored many of areas you have an interest in. Five or six years ago this could have been a good concept and maybe again in the future. You cant get a loan on a house , condo,s were pre sold to 65%to 70% to cover building cost and banks will never fall for that again. This leaves you with the developer comming up with enough cash to pay the building cost or pre selling to people who dont have to get a loan. I know one condo developer who could come out of pocket but most could,nt , that,s why I,m building a bridge these days. You may be able to find the floating city on google, I think the concept is a good one but it will be hard to sell it right now. Rick