Bamboo

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by PAR

This is the main issue we have with this stuff, the lack of credible product testing and certification. Will the adhesive pass a type 1 boil test? What does Lloyd's think of this stuff . . . I can't see any product manufacture, turning down an obvious market nitch, if they didn't already know the product wouldn't hold up. This would go a long way toward explaining why the suppliers are quickly saying no, to marine environment requires or suggestions.

PAR,

I'm a competent jack-of-all trades, but I'm not a skilled and knowledgeable yacht designer and I know it. That's why I'm here. I know enough to ask what are hopefully intelligent questions, but I also know enough to know I'm probably missing a lot.

As I go look for a suitable finish surface for the cabin sole in my 34' coastal sailboat, I see a couple of comments in your reply above that caught my eye.

You mention a "type 1 boil test" -- what kinds of finish surfaces are tested to this, and where do I find them? Is this something that is marked on the product, or something assumed? When I go to my local specialty lumber yard and get a sheet of 1/4 "marine grade" teak and holly (the defacto standard for yacht flooring) will I find this clearly marked, or is it assumed -- or worse yet, is it important, not marked, and often not suitable?

You also mention Lloyds approval. The same questions as with the boil test arise -- again, what should I be looking for in a flooring surface with Lloyds approval?

While I understand that marine should require a higher grade of goods, it can be very difficult to know what a product West Marine has on the shelf really is, and how it is superior to a Home Depot product when the only "badge of credibility" is the fact that it is sold by West Marine -- a very weak endorsement for sure, but frequently the best available.

Harry

[PAR]

Harry when it comes to plywood there are several (actually many) grading systems, but a universal standard is the Lloyd's "British Standard" which has a few different classifications, specifically the BS 1088 and 6566 designation. In the USA we (the APA) employ a voluntary grading system and the marine grade is P1-95. US made plywood often isn't marked on each panel, though most reputable BS graded stock is clearly marked.

What these "ratings" certify are the species, adhesives and construction tolerances permitted to receive the rating. The adhesives are WBP (water/boil proof), the species rot resistant, the internal and external veneers have quality requirements they must meet or they're not up to the standard. The adhesives rating is it's resistance of adhesive-bonded joints to thermal and hydrolytic degradation. There are several ASTM (and others) standards that can be expected from these panels as well; such as sheer, tension and other loading expectations, etc.

Once you get a handle on what a good sheet of BS 1088 looks like and compare it to the same thickness construction plywood (Lowe's/Depot), it quickly becomes obvious. This is more so true, when you use it in a boat and have to bend and torture it into position. Because of the construction of marine grades, they can tolerate much high strains and loads, where a construction grade panel would just break, the marine sucks it up and accepts it's fate.

The type 1 test is a water proof test that just checks an adhesive's ability to resist moisture. Passing the type 1 test indicates it's absolutely waterproof, though admittedly some adhesives have the type 1 certification but just barely pass and aren't recommended for immersion. TiteBond III is a classic example of this, but the manufacture clearly understands this and points it out in the published physical properties information about it.

All materials and products with wide acceptance in the commercial markets, have no choice but to submit to testing and certification, other wise they have a very limited market. This is why there's always a MDS and other "data" sheets or PDF's that offer more detailed descriptions of the products on web sites.

As for your needs and difficulties, education and experience about the marine product differences will be helpful. You don't have to go to school or take a part time job in a marina, but again one look at a BS 1088 sheet next to a BCX sheet from Lowe's will reveal much. The same is true of an alcohol stove, one intended for your Winnebago, the other your yacht. The RV stove will look very much like you yacht's unit, but then the differences begin to show up, such as stainless bracketry, marine grade fastenings, fiddles and a host of other little, often subtle differences, which tend to drive the cost up as much as the markup, for the word "marine" on the packaging.

As to your flooring, contact the manufacture and ask them straight up what the adhesive is and/or if it passes the type 1 WBP test. You might be able to get by with a type II certification (water resistant only) in your cabin, but sailboat soles have a common habit of getting very wet from time to time and a type II adhesive will "let go" fairly quickly. I don't use these new laminated flooring products on boats, though a large motor yacht certainly could tolerate them, I'm not convinced it would be a good choice for a 34' cruiser. So, this leaves the option of real wood, veneered panels, applique's (PVC, etc.), etc. As to what best for you; product research with each potential product you like, is the answer. Some manufactures will hop at the chance to brag about their WBP products, while others will dance all around the subject and not really offer you the answer you need (because they know the answer and would prefer it remains a mystery).

[Ilan Voyager]

sailingharry , Par gave you the rational and straight answer. He took the time to write a very detailed explanation.

I do love bamboo and bamboo flooring but I share Par's opinion that a bamboo flooring on a 34 foot sailboat won't be a good option. Type 1 WBP glues are generally dark so unsuitable for making any laminated product as bamboo flooring, and at the best of cases the glue will be a transparent urea-formol used widely for wood decorative products.

A such glue has only a moderate resistance to water and the bamboo flooring will fall in pieces in brief delays. Bamboo swells a lot (about 15%) when "wetted" and no glue will take such stresses.

These bamboo floors are made for inside residential use like all the decorative wood flooring.

The other problem for a 34 foot sail boat is that the floor will be probably too heavy. Make a calculation of the sq. foot weight you'll be horrified, as it's just a super carpet with not structural strength, so a full floor structure is needed under...

[sailingharry]

I think I've been convinced. I'll be staying with the tried and true "marine grade" teak and holly plywood. From what I can tell from the internet, it lasts fairly well if you never need to strip and refinish --- if you keep the varnish in good shape, it's a decent product. My current sole is teak and "black stripes" with an oil finish, but the top veneer from 1979 is probably thicker than today's versions.

Thanks all, especially PAR, for your thorough responses.

Harry